Michel Bauwens: P2P & Commons Strategy | Logos Podcast with Jarrad Hope

Michel Bauwens

Any competition for scarce resources leads to oligarchy. Why? Because it's a it's a game. And every iteration of the game, some is more lucky or more clever than you. So they already have more resources for the second game and then the third game. And so whether it's land or money, you, you see it, you know, that is always this tendency towards oligarchy.

Jarrad Hope

Oh, thank you so much, Michel, for joining me. You don't quite know it, but your ideas and the peer to peer Foundation wiki was very transformative in my thinking. I think I came across it around sort of 2006, 2007 when I was looking at the Pirate Party.

Michel Bauwens

That was right at the beginning.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah, yeah, I was very in much in the sort of like file sharing side of peer to peer networks. But coming across the peer to peer foundation and what they were doing with the Pirate Party, I kind of started realizing the broader scope of peer to peer technologies. Peer production and the notion of a public good and building these as these protocols and these networks as public goods is something that stayed with me since. And I've been trying to kind of build that out. So that's like one reason. Also, another reason I'd like to speak with you is, you know, you've talked about the network society. You've been very concerned with civilizational transitions, as I understand it. And I'm very much about this notion of cyber states and so on. So, yeah, I guess before we get into any of that, would you like to introduce yourself?

Michel Bauwens

All right. So. Yeah. So my name is obviously Michel Bauwens. I'm from Belgium originally. I would say, unfortunately, I'm 66. You know, start starts to count. And I live in northern Thailand in Chiang Mai, which last week was the most polluted city in the world. But was saying I nevertheless recommend outside of these hazing months, which is, you know, like March to May. It's it's quite a wonderful place to live normally. And it's, you know, one of the places where the number of digital nomads is very, very high. And it used to be Westerners. Now it's like a lot of Chinese people are coming are coming here. So, you know, the last few meetings of digital nomads that I attended were like full of Asian people from India, from Pakistan, from everywhere. So, you know, you kind of feel the shift also in the zeitgeist and the vibe, you know, the Westernization is in the air. What else should I say? Yeah. So I founded a peer to peer foundation that was in I took a two year sabbatical in in 2002, 2003, which was the purpose was to study transitions. And I came to the conclusion that before you have, you know, really radical transformations like revolutions and stuff, that this is really only the last stage. And it only happens when society cannot adapt peacefully. Then, you know, you need something more violent to to shake its foundations. But that mostly what's of importance is seed forms. So, you know, the way you should imagine it. And I know this is already outside of self presentation.

Jarrad Hope

No,

Michel Bauwens

But

Jarrad Hope

This is great.

Michel Bauwens

The way you should, the way you should imagine it. So you have a relatively stable system you know, that has solved some basic societal issue and that as a set of institutions that, as it has solved its institutions, creates its own problems, as it were, which can no longer be solved with, with, with that solution. And so at that point, people start quitting either voluntarily because they have like an anti anticipatory consciousness or because they have to because the old system no longer provides what they need and expect. And so these seed forms are experimentations in a new logic which eventually will find each other, create subsystems, and eventually be strong enough to, you know, to transform the whole, the whole civilization. So that's the way I look at the world. And so, of course, right now I look at the world at around two specific things, which is peer to peer, which is the capacity for translocal self-organization. So that's, you know, you have peer to peer in a tribal environment with, you know, a small village and people can you know, can solve their issues by talking to their family members, mostly because that's what tribes were about, about kinship. I'm talking about you know, what we are doing here and all the systems that go with it.

Michel Bauwens

So the fact that people can join ecosystems of collaboration which transcend pure geography. And, you know, that's not to say that's the only reality, but that is certainly to say that this will change the old reality and that I think this is civilizational because civilization was actually a relation between agriculture and the city. So it's the surplus of agriculture allows you to create a new class writing class. And, you know, which was a minority, and the writing class created markets and states you know, to kind of upscale from tribal arrangements. And I think we're reaching a new pivot. So I think this is actually more like A5000 year shift rather than just like a, you know, a 50 year shift or even 500 years shift. I think we are moving towards this new form of mutual coordination. So distributed coordination. By Pierce. But to do that they need comments. So this is the second concept. So the second concept is comments which is shared resources that are managed or created or defended by a community or a group of stakeholders using their own regulation. And so that immediately distinguishes from the market and the state. So,

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

You know, without without saying or expecting that they will disappear anytime soon. I do think that we are creating this new sphere. So I don't know if you know. Mark Stallman from the center for the Study of Digital Life. He has a good way to. He says you have East and West, and now you have digital. So you have this

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Kind of like, you know, market centric versus state centric competition between the West and the Russia-china axis and the BRICs and, you know, mostly allied now with with them. So that's like the struggle in the geosphere. But then we

Jarrad Hope

All

Michel Bauwens

Have

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

A new layer and we come with our own solutions. And then of course there's a big debate and maybe we can have that debate whether the, you know, purely libertarian solution is, is the solution or whether, you know, it's some something else or some kind of hybrid adaptation between, you know, the the earlier layer, physical layer and this new layer. So that's the whole debate. I think that that is of interest is like, you know, where are we going? And so

Jarrad Hope

The.

Michel Bauwens

If you if you study civilization, I and I will stop, I promise, you

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Know, and especially civilization transition of the past. I think this gives you a lot of patterns that, you know, without saying they will be repeated in the same way. It's still, you know, allows you to think like, what if, right? What if this pattern, you know, is now also operative in this transition? And how would it be different once we have the digital? So that's the kind of what I use

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

To my thinking. I look at the end of Rome and, you know, like medieval I love medieval society, Western medieval society. I think it's a very

Jarrad Hope

Same.

Michel Bauwens

Good image of a distributed system. You know, it

Jarrad Hope

Definitely.

Michel Bauwens

Was full of contracts, as you know, you know, not digital contracts, but it was contract based society,

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Very local, but at the same time, a unified culture through, you know, through the monks and the Catholic Church. And again, I'm not saying this to say we're going towards the same, but I think it's very useful to study patterns of the past and see if they apply or not, and whether they are transformed or not, and how they are transformed, and whether there's new things that, you know, that didn't exist before. But it helps you see the present especially, you know, because we are in a presentist moment, right, where people can't see anything like scales. So and they can't project themselves. And that's, that's very dangerous, right? If

Jarrad Hope

Definitely.

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Cannot project yourself. And, you know, and there's basically three two ways to deal with that one. One is transcendence. You know, you become spiritual and you choose the vertical dimension and you kind of like move away from the world in a certain way. Or you can have a horizontal transcendence, which is like to have a long enough view that you can project yourself beyond the catastrophe. Which, you know, every civilization transition also is so and that can give you strength and hope. And I think that's what I'm trying to do with, you know, my narratives about peer to peer and the Commons.

Jarrad Hope

Right. Nice. I mean, thank you for that. There's a lot to unpack and I'd love to get into so I guess, like when it comes to this sort of like five year, 5000 year or 5000 year shift where are we in that sort of period? I guess, in your mind, like, if we bring this to, like, a more concrete, like, I assume that you you think

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

We're undergoing this civilizational shift?

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

And then, like, what is the agriculture equivalent we're talking about here?

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Is this the the net or or or,

Michel Bauwens

Okay,

Jarrad Hope

You know, just

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Instantaneous

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Communications.

Michel Bauwens

Let me say a bit about cycles. Maybe first. So

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

What? So what I believe is that we are in a concatenation of cycles. I hope that's a good English word. What I mean

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Is that a lot of cycles which are in the descending phase are, you know, coming together and making the crisis very intense. So we have a kondratieff cycle. This is the cycle of the political economy, which is about 50 years, you know, has a upswing, peak and downswing and then a sudden systemic crisis. This is rather

Michel Bauwens

Easy, I think, to pinpoint because. So starting in 45, you know, we had an upswing. The middle was 73. You know, we had the oil crisis and everything. And I think definitely 2008 was the end of it was when the the whole, you know, that system kind of crashed.

Jarrad Hope

So

Michel Bauwens

Then there is

Jarrad Hope

When

Michel Bauwens

100

Jarrad Hope

We're

Michel Bauwens

Year

Jarrad Hope

Talking.

Michel Bauwens

Cycle,

Jarrad Hope

Sorry

Michel Bauwens

Right?

Jarrad Hope

To interrupt you there, but like when we're talking about these cycles, are you talking about it in like, a sort of Spengler Toynbee Burnham kind

Michel Bauwens

Yeah,

Jarrad Hope

Of sense?

Michel Bauwens

But they have long. I'll come to it. They have long cycles.

Jarrad Hope

Okay?

Michel Bauwens

So I'm starting

Jarrad Hope

Okay.

Michel Bauwens

With

Jarrad Hope

Sorry.

Michel Bauwens

The small

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Ones and I

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Get to the longer ones. So

Jarrad Hope

Okay.

Michel Bauwens

The, you know, the shortest is on average 50 years. But you know, when you say 50, it can be 60 or 40

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

Or, but

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

You know,

Jarrad Hope

Some

Michel Bauwens

And it's like

Jarrad Hope

Standard

Michel Bauwens

A,

Jarrad Hope

Deviation.

Michel Bauwens

Like it's

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

A political economy system. So and you can, you know, we had two phases before the peak, the welfare state and then after the peak, the neoliberal system and

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Then that crash in 2008. So so there we are in the chaotic transition of the political economy cycle and seeking a new combination of energy and, you know, work organization and all of that. But then there is the hundred year cycle, which is described in the fourth generation book, right where you have. First generation after the crisis. Rebuild society. 25 years. One generation. The second generation 68. Starts revolting against the system already. The third phase is when they're both on the same level of strength. So the old and the new are like like in the 90s. And then the fourth, the fourth generation cycle is when you enter chaos. And so that's a civic cycle. It pertains to civic institutions like the trust in democracy. We can

Michel Bauwens

Clearly see, you know, it's largely gone.

Jarrad Hope

It's

Michel Bauwens

People

Jarrad Hope

Very eroded.

Michel Bauwens

Don't trust the press, don't trust the media. That's not an economic issue. That's a civic issue. Like how do we organize ourselves politically? Of course they're related.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

But and

Jarrad Hope

And

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

What

Michel Bauwens

It

Jarrad Hope

Shreds

Michel Bauwens

Also

Jarrad Hope

Remain

Michel Bauwens

Seems.

Jarrad Hope

Of that generative AI is going to completely ruin

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

As well,

Michel Bauwens

You can.

Jarrad Hope

Right?

Michel Bauwens

Yes. So then

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

You have, you know, you can see that the war cycle and the hegemony cycle are also hundred years are related to that second cycle. And what happens is every hundred years there's a big war. Think Napoleon, World War one, World War two, and now you can feel it. We're going back to

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

A very unstable period with Ukraine, Gaza. And this is just, you know, in the last two years and who knows, you know, Iran could get involved. And the Houthis and, you know, it's and China

Jarrad Hope

Could

Michel Bauwens

And Taiwan,

Jarrad Hope

Escalate.

Michel Bauwens

I mean, it's it's not you know, it's it's getting very unstable. Right. And

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So a harmonic means like a change of hegemony, right?

Jarrad Hope

Okay.

Michel Bauwens

The Portuguese, the Dutch, the British, they had actually two cycles and the American cycle. And I think it's very likely that the American hegemony is, you know, is is going down, which is very dangerous because, you know. It's like a wounded tiger, you know, if you're.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

That's when you're

Jarrad Hope

Thrashing

Michel Bauwens

Most dangerous.

Jarrad Hope

In its last throes.

Michel Bauwens

Right?

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Right. So then the so. So now Toynbee and Spengler, they are about long cycles and

Michel Bauwens

It's 1000 year and 500 years. So basically you could you could have this kind of idea that. You know, so you have chaos. Out of that comes a civilization eventually

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Creates cities, and they're decentralized, right? Eventually they start fighting to each other and creating

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Alliances against each other, and eventually they exhausted themselves. So that's what happened to Greece. I think around the fourth century BC.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And that's what happened to Italy in the 14th century, right? So when you reach that 500 year stage of a civilization, the second phase is a centralizing phase of civilization. Now, in Europe, because England was always destroying the would be empires. We have a very special system, which is a nation state. So we never got a true empire. But nation states are also centralizing, you know, agents, right. They centralize on a smaller area, but then they unite in an international system. And which was clearly dominated by the US since, you know, the 1940s. So I would say we are also at the end of A1000 year cycle of Western civilization, because that started more or less in line 98 with the German Holy Roman Empire, which restored a kind of integrative dynamic because between 500 and 1000 it's chaos. It's a dark age. So it's only when the Holy Roman Empire establishes itself that you get, you know, like the the growth of the High Middle Ages. And so that 500 period collapses in the, in the in 1500.

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

You know, the I mean, it's it's a longer process, but that basically creates the conditions for the nation state system, which again, you know, has different iterations. And I think that is ending now. Right? So

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

That's 501,000 years. And then the 5000 year is the idea that civilization was an agrarian, a rural urban relationship. And you know, which you can also then go into complications. But let's put it let's stay simple that we now have this new layer, the trans local layer of self-organized trans local communities. Right. And then

Michel Bauwens

If you don't mind, I can historicize that a little bit. So

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

I think 93 is a key date because we democratize the digital. Before

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

93. It's used by companies, big governments, but citizens have no access to it. So in 93 is like the explosion after the web and the browser. Right?

Michel Bauwens

Then open source, and I'm not sure what day to put an open source, but open source. Why is this important is the first time we can coordinate human labor at a global scale. Outside of corporations and states. So, you know, small groups of on average five people. Can create a coalition of 25,000 workers with 500 companies involved and create Linux.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

And

Michel Bauwens

So.

Jarrad Hope

Run

Michel Bauwens

But.

Jarrad Hope

On billions of devices as the backbone of

Michel Bauwens

Exactly.

Jarrad Hope

Basically

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

The

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Internet,

Michel Bauwens

And and

Jarrad Hope

You know.

Michel Bauwens

The market estate can cannot even do that on their own. So without

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

The open source commons, no state or or company is actually able to do it by themselves. And okay, then crypto comes in, which is a second layer, because I think the problem with open source was that we couldn't fund the core of the commons.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

So the

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

People who interfacing with the market, you know, could get money for certification, education, improving adaptation. But the people working for the core had to be subsidized by big multinationals. And so the problem of open source is it's under heavy influence of big companies that, you know, that are very influential in the core of these open source developments. And so crypto is interesting because it allows for the financialization, for the financing of that open source work in the core. And so now you see Ethereum, you know, funding public goods. So taxing itself, as it were, right. Optimism. You pay double the cost of maintaining and growing that that I don't know how you call it like a chain or whatever you want to call it.

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

And, and they give it to Gitcoin and Gitcoin then funds the commons of Ethereum.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Right. So this is an extraordinarily significant because we have. So the capacity now from within the network. To finance your own comments. Now, I think there's still, you know, a big problem and which I will explain right now, which is the relationship. So I still think crypto is, is incomplete because it doesn't deal with real production. Right.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So when you look at declining civilizations, let me give you very quickly the end of Rome. So Rome is a slave based system, right? You conquer, you get slaves and booty and gold, and then you pay the soldiers with that booty. When

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

You can no longer conquer. Now you have to start paying your soldiers. So you have to start taxing, right? Then the landlords have to pay the tax. But as the system declines, you know, the the people leave the cities and look for to go back to the countryside to be closer to food production. And they start, you know, putting pressure on the landlords to pay them, you know, to lower the rents. So then the Roman state says we're going to make them colony, force them to stay on the land so that the landlords can pay their taxes. So that's the beginning of feudalism already within the

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

As a root within the Roman Empire, right? So what I'm saying is and so what you also have to understand is that at the end of the Roman Empire, there was no more money. Like, literally

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

The monetary system collapsed. So you go back to food, you know. So I'm a farmer, you're the landlord. I give you, you know, half of my food production. And so you can pay soldiers that will protect me. That's

Jarrad Hope

Right?

Michel Bauwens

Like the social contract

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Feudalism. And so what I'm so my critique of crypto is that if you just think that you can do like an exodus out of the old system and then do an arbitrage between nation states, you know, and, oh, if if Portugal collapses, we go to Greece. If Greece collapses, we go to the Canary Islands. You know,

Jarrad Hope

Right?

Michel Bauwens

At some point it will bite you in the ass because

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Some

Jarrad Hope

You're

Michel Bauwens

People

Jarrad Hope

Not

Michel Bauwens

Will say,

Jarrad Hope

If you're not producing

Michel Bauwens

We

Jarrad Hope

Anything on

Michel Bauwens

Don't

Jarrad Hope

Your own.

Michel Bauwens

Want these parasites, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

We don't want these parasites. We,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

And so I think crypto should get involved. In physical production, in reorganizing physical production and creating what I call mutual coordination economics with your own supply chains. Okay, this is not a topic I can go into it, but okay, I feel I've I

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

Want

Jarrad Hope

Have

Michel Bauwens

You to

Jarrad Hope

So many

Michel Bauwens

React

Jarrad Hope

Questions.

Michel Bauwens

To this.

Jarrad Hope

And there's there's a bunch of things that I want to unpack. This is great stuff, I guess. Are you familiar with familiar with Bertrand de Jouvenel, who did the book on power?

Michel Bauwens

Yeah, yeah, I

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Read the I read it. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

I was. Yeah. Because I guess, like, you know, one of my questions is and it certainly comes up, you know, after the fall of Rome in his examples. You know, basically how things start to recentralize I don't know if

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

You have any ideas around, like why that has or if you agree with,

Michel Bauwens

Yes.

Jarrad Hope

You know, some

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Of his ideas

Michel Bauwens

Okay,

Jarrad Hope

Or.

Michel Bauwens

So let let me explain, Spangler, because he sheds a light on this. So,

Michel Bauwens

A civilization. Is a mixture. At first

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

You have an invader and a local population, and that's

Michel Bauwens

Why you have to go beyond custom, because both have their own customs and are there together. They have to reinvent society in order to live together. Right. And so essentially you have a warrior class, which is the invading class, and a priestly class which tries to civilize the warriors because, you know, you need almost psychopaths to go to war. But then, of course, when they come home, they do the same and they rape the women. And so you in order to have a civilization, you need both. You need the warriors and the priests, and the priests are there to soften the, you know, the,

Jarrad Hope

All right.

Michel Bauwens

The

Jarrad Hope

Like a regulating

Michel Bauwens

System

Jarrad Hope

Function.

Michel Bauwens

Of the

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

Warriors. Right? So

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Eventually, you know, they're successful, they create a surplus and you get cities. So

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

In cities create a third class, which is the the merchant class and the guilds and stuff. Right. So this is where you get the juvenile because what he noticed is, is that and this is not like Marx who only sees two, you know, dialectics and juvenile sees Trialectics. Right. He sees

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Bottom, middle and top. And so what

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Juvenile says is that the top will mobilize the bottom against the middle. Right? So

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

The the cities and the kings will ally against the aristocracy. And if that inevitably will actually abolish the caste system eventually. And it happens in

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Every civilization, not just in the West, you, Byzantium, China, you know, Spain really documents that this is a very universal pattern. Right? So then in the cities. As they grow bigger and bigger, you create a fourth class, he says, which is a working class, and they want democracy. And they'll get democracy. But democracy is corrupted by money, and eventually that will collapse as well. And then you get what you call caesarism.

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And I think there's very good grounds to say that we are now entering a serious period. You

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Know, figures like Trump.

Jarrad Hope

I

Jarrad Hope

Was

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Going to say

Michel Bauwens

People.

Jarrad Hope

That. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah. So, you know, if you talk to people who like Trump, it's not that they like everything he is or does, but they say, we need a crazy guy like that just to, you know, be

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

A bull in a China shop, because

Jarrad Hope

Reset

Michel Bauwens

Otherwise nothing

Jarrad Hope

This.

Michel Bauwens

Is

Jarrad Hope

Exactly.

Michel Bauwens

Going to change for us, right? And because the system is so stuck. You know, so you get these figures coming out and they do the arbitrage between the people.

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Right? They. So what is Caesar can do is say, well, I'll give this to the working class and I'll give this to the capitalists, and I'll give this to the, to the, to the church. And because they, they are in a, in a how do you say this in English? Like a bad situation where nobody can win, right. The

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Reds and the Blues in the US

Jarrad Hope

Stalemate.

Michel Bauwens

Is

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

They can't win. It's a stalemate. So then you can have a figure coming out who can, who can decide who to favor. And if this side comes too strong, he'll support for a while. The other side. Right. So that's what a Caesar usually does. There's somebody who allies with the poor. You know and then changes the system and gives enough to the poor so that they're happy with him.

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

You know Peron, Napoleon. They are figures like that. And I think Trump

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Is probably has the potential to be a figure like that.

Jarrad Hope

Gotcha. Yeah, I think thanks for that. I guess, like so one of the things that, you know, we talked about crypto and how this improves the open source dynamics, you know, and, and building these sort of public goods. But like in the light of this, I've kind of been a little bit concerned in the way that I've been viewing you know, blockchain networks because I, I'm starting to view them more like social orders and the consensus

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Algorithm much more like a a form of popular sovereignty in a way. And I can imagine this order being the backbone or basis for a you know, cyber state, virtual state, temporary autonomous zone, network

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

State, whatever you want to call it. And so then, like when we start talking about you know, funding of these public goods, it's almost like a developmental state in that it is investing heavily in infrastructure. But that patronage is also kind of a centralizing force because it creates this strong dependency. So unless, you know, we build out token economics and mechanisms for these various public goods to be self-sustaining. I could see, you know maybe in, I don't know which cycle it would be 50 or 100 years time that, you know,

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

A crypto SA comes up and

Michel Bauwens

I,

Jarrad Hope

Aligns

Michel Bauwens

You know, I

Jarrad Hope

All

Michel Bauwens

Think

Jarrad Hope

Of these things.

Michel Bauwens

You should. You should, you should actually see that way in a way. Right. Because

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

We can't be fully utopian. So because nature, you know, is cyclic and human culture is cyclic. And so here's my view. So any competition for scarce resources leads to oligarchy.

Jarrad Hope

New.

Michel Bauwens

Why? Because it's a it's a game and every iteration of the game, some is more lucky or more clever than you. So they already have more resources for the second game and then the third game. And so whether it's land or money, you, you see it, you know, that is always this tendency towards oligarchy.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Unless unless you either react to it violently. So that's actually, you know, few people know that. But Greek democracy was a revolution against the landed aristocracy, which was, you know, lending out money at high interest. And that was that's what created Greek democracy as a revolt against, you know, the self and self enslaving by the landlords. And then the way to maintain it is by having anti oligarchic measures. Right. And so

Michel Bauwens

Again, I'm happy to see what like what I think quadratic funding and quadratic voting. You know I'm not very technical. And you know I'm not sure exactly how they work. But I think you know they seem to me, to me to be anti oligarchic efforts right to, to balance contribution with, with the, let's say the investor tokens and give more power to people who contribute to the network itself. So I think to the degree that we can find these like balancing measures, we can maintain, you know, the systems longer will it be forever? I don't know, I don't think so. I don't expect it because in the past we haven't been able to do it either. You know, look at like medieval cities, you know, they were self-organized.

Michel Bauwens

Run by the guilds. And only later, you know, did the merchant guilds dominate. And then other the merchant guilds came, came these families that started dominating the whole city, you know, like the Medici. And. Right. It took a while, but there's a long period where, you know, maybe 150 years, half a 300 year cycle where the, you know, you have. We had very democratic run cities. 98% of the people in the Middle Ages were in the cities, were members of associations, fraternities, you know, with their own judiciary and everything. So, you know, I hope you can see that, you know, there's there's some parallels there with the way the crypto

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

World is developing. Right? Except that they're

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Not territorial

Jarrad Hope

I mean, Dao

Michel Bauwens

Cities.

Jarrad Hope

Is a kind

Michel Bauwens

They're

Jarrad Hope

Of like

Michel Bauwens

Like.

Jarrad Hope

Guilds, you know?

Michel Bauwens

Yeah. And you

Michel Bauwens

Actually have now, you know, they call themselves guilds like

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

The Protocol Guild and stuff. So, so this kind of tendency towards distribution and decentralization, which you see in crypto is kind of creating similar phenomena. Then, you know, when we were creating this decentralized city systems. But again, you know, we'll have to see whether we can go out of the cycle or not. To some degree, I think this is the real the real challenge, actually. Okay. And here I have to be optimistic. So I'll give you a big scheme I like scheme, so here's another one. So nature created or God if you like, you know, created an immature biosphere.

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Right. And then you have something called the Great Oxygenation Event, which was poisonous, but then actually created. A mature biosphere eventually. So, you know, based on on oxygen and what, you know, what some people call Gaia, but it's scientific now. It's called Earth System science, which is, you know, it's actually a system that that tries to maintain itself. It's mysterious. We, you know, but they have identified many feedback systems that recreate order when there is chaos and disorder. Right. So then then we come. So nature creates sculpture right through humanity creates a new layer. So you have the geosphere, the biosphere of life and then the new sphere of human culture. And what we create is an immature technosphere, right? Which is eating the biosphere and eating the geosphere in an unsustainable way. So the

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Big challenge for me is. Can we move from an immature technosphere to a mature technosphere? Right. And I think this is the big challenge. This is the big transition. And if we succeed in that, then maybe we can live for thousands of years. In balance with with the planet. I think that's the great hope. Right. And so where does crypto come in? I think crypto creates a planetary scale, mutual coordination economy, but I

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Call it cosmological because why do we need to be local? Because two thirds of the expenditure of matter and energy. Is actually transporting now, and that's way too much. Like, you know there's very good better in in Patagonia. But they're getting bankrupt by the New Zealand better. Right

Jarrad Hope

Right?

Michel Bauwens

This that's there's no need

Jarrad Hope

Absurd.

Michel Bauwens

For that. Like

Jarrad Hope

Yeah, yeah.

Michel Bauwens

That's absurd. Right. Or you think about

Jarrad Hope

For.

Michel Bauwens

Shrimp. You know they they're fished and use in New England. They sent to China and then they come back.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Same thing here. You know, the apples go to China and then they come back. So there is a lot enormous waste because we are fixated on money. And money doesn't give us the right signals about thermodynamic realities. Right. And

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

So there's a lot of things in, in crypto that actually that are potential solution to this. So the first thing is the actual ability to coordinate production on a global scale. So we relocalize we mutualize certain things because it's cheap to do certain things collectively. But then we have the layer of the noosphere, which is cosmic, right? What is heavy is local, and what is light is global. And so I always say to the localist that localism is sublinear.

Jarrad Hope

What?

Michel Bauwens

You lose efficiency if you only local.

Michel Bauwens

But cosmological is superlinear. We gain efficiency by combining the local with the cosmic. Right. So re localized production but but global cooperation. And so you ask me how long you know the crisis can can last. So one of the answers is this it used to take four generations. I

Michel Bauwens

Don't think we have four generations. So our hope is the acceleration of technology, and that's where

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Ai comes in. You know, for me, not as some mystical intelligence is going to take over, but

Jarrad Hope

It.

Michel Bauwens

As something that is going to be like a tool. That is going to tell us the limits of what we can spend for humanity, right? So I see a first layer of stigmergic coordination. So because of open source and crypto, we can see the whole ecosystem. So we move from a situation where you have competing states and markets

Jarrad Hope

See.

Michel Bauwens

Which can only see their own thing. Am I making more profit? Am I getting enough taxes? They never see the impact, the externalities. Now we have a universal ledger, the blockchain.

Michel Bauwens

Where you know. And so this is a fourth layer. You have market stage nonprofits. We creating an integrative meta layer of coordination of those three sectors, plus all the three contributors that can also join a collaborative ecosystem. And it's cosmological.

Jarrad Hope

Well.

Michel Bauwens

It works both for the local and for the for the universal level. So I think we need it. So we need planetary without having a world government. And I think

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

That's where network

Jarrad Hope

So?

Michel Bauwens

Commons based networks are that are are the the equivalent of a world government based on states.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting. I've come to some similar conclusions and parallels, but from a slightly different angle. So and more from a technical way and like how you can retain these sort of utilities and properties of, you know, what we love about you know, Bitcoin and Ethereum. And, you know, one example in terms of the US's, you know, potential decline you know, in its position as being, you know, effectively the de facto peace keeper for the planet. And consequently, the US dollar being essentially the world reserve currency. Right. But through its overuse of economic sanctions, you're finding BRICs countries are now starting to create alternate swap lines to circumvent the US dollar effectively.

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

And within that you know, there's a call for the notion of political neutrality in a world reserve currency. Like this would be a highly

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Desired

Michel Bauwens

Which

Jarrad Hope

Property,

Michel Bauwens

Which the

Jarrad Hope

Right?

Michel Bauwens

West unfortunately is, is you know that I mean, that makes me angry that, you know, when

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

They freeze Russian assets, right? You're telling

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

The world you cannot trust the Western financial system

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

When you

Jarrad Hope

Exactly.

Michel Bauwens

Are bombing, you know, the Nord Stream, you're telling the world, oh, it's okay to to destroy physical infrastructure.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

I mean,

Michel Bauwens

We, the West, have set very bad precedents, you

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

Know, which I think comes from the panic of the US of losing its hegemony. And, you know, it's it's willing to do everything to keep it. But it's it's in many ways counterproductive.

Jarrad Hope

I agree. And so like, with this idea in mind and I was also reading, I think it's called is the international legal Order unraveling, which is done by, I want to say, the American Law Institute. I could be wrong on the publisher on that. And

Michel Bauwens

I'm

Jarrad Hope

The title,

Michel Bauwens

Going to take

Jarrad Hope

But,

Michel Bauwens

A note of that because. Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

You know, it's it is a set of American lawyers who work in international law. And they start, you know, looking at all the different aspects of you know, how world order has changed over, you know, certainly post

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

World War Two. But like, you know, what, the sort of vertical and horizontal rules and and how they've been treated and so like, if you view blockchain that is as politically neutral as possible. And in my view, you know, this includes you know, private network level privacy as well as private transactions are almost necessary to maintain that. If you have that in place, then it actually becomes like a great order for, you know, this global coordination. And then the stakeholders are the participants in the consensus algorithm can be state and

Michel Bauwens

One.

Jarrad Hope

Global non-state actors yet they retain their sovereignty because they can either, you know, withdraw from their usage

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Of that order or fork it. Right.

Michel Bauwens

So that's a very good example of, you know, fourth sector, right. Where you you are

Jarrad Hope

Okay.

Michel Bauwens

Creating this meta integration. And I think that's the most realistic because, you know, when you talk about network states and network nations, I mean, definitely there is something going on. I you know, I'm not denying that, that people are self-organizing and wanting to do this and, you know, assembling money and that, you know, like at this stage, you know, which is like the Network City stage, you can imagine some countries like Morocco or Tunisia and saying, oh, why don't you come here? You know, and that attracts

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Money and knowledge. I mean, that I think can certainly happen. But, you know, given

Jarrad Hope

That's

Michel Bauwens

The

Jarrad Hope

A digital

Michel Bauwens

Scale

Jarrad Hope

Nomad

Michel Bauwens

Of China,

Jarrad Hope

Version of it. Almost. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Right,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Given the scale of China and Russia, I think we shouldn't rush into like utopianism about it. You know, the

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

So it's going to be like a play of mutual adaptation for, for a certain time where. And so I think this strategy is the best one where, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

And so the

Jarrad Hope

Thank

Michel Bauwens

Difference

Jarrad Hope

You.

Michel Bauwens

Is the following. So

Michel Bauwens

Market societies in the West are competing with state centric societies, you know, in the East Eurasian side and then the BRICs with them, they, you know, they they want to. So the state is becoming stronger in Russia and China, not weaker.

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

Right? So

Jarrad Hope

Of

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Course.

Michel Bauwens

Have to be careful to be realistic about what is happening in the world.

Jarrad Hope

So this

Jarrad Hope

Is what I wanted to get back to around this

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

East versus west versus digital. Right. So like the the main issue that I see with, with that trichotomy is that the digital is, is basically dependent on the East and West's physical infrastructure. Right.

Michel Bauwens

Yes.

Jarrad Hope

And so that's a huge dependency. So again, this is why I think, you know, blinding the network level traffic between peers may be a way that you can Reach netizens in countries that may

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Not be able to access

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

It under

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Normal

Michel Bauwens

Then so

Jarrad Hope

Conditions.

Michel Bauwens

Then, as you know, as a relatively autonomous actor, you know, these

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Proto network nations,

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

I like the word coordination that was invented by, you know, Primavera De Filippi

Jarrad Hope

The.

Michel Bauwens

And her crew. I think

Jarrad Hope

I'm.

Michel Bauwens

That's

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

A really

Jarrad Hope

I'm familiar

Michel Bauwens

Nice

Jarrad Hope

With

Michel Bauwens

Word

Jarrad Hope

Her.

Michel Bauwens

Coordination

Jarrad Hope

Yeah, it's a great.

Michel Bauwens

Because it leaves it open to what exactly it's going to be. You know, how you know, but they have a vested interest to protect themselves, right? And so this, I think is inevitable, right? You, you as as a kind of. So I'm not sure if this is a good analogy, but I, I like it. So. Okay. So 5000 years ago, we create writing

Michel Bauwens

That creates a writing class. And they create a world to their image through markets and states. You know, we can do their

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Accounting and their writing and okay. Then today we have a new language coding and

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

A coding class. Right. Which has access to its computers. So that's their means of production, but they don't have access to the means of valuation. The networks

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

That would because they are still controlled by corporations and states. And so, naturally, if they want to create a world to their image, they're, they're they're pushed to create, you know, their own infrastructures and to do arbitrage and to protect themselves. And I think this is where crypto, you know, is, is very important to, you know, to create all these things because of course. You know, I don't know what you think about this, but I think that in the West, we're moving pretty fast to a Chinese situation in the sense of,

Jarrad Hope

Oh,

Michel Bauwens

You know,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

Surveillance

Jarrad Hope

100%.

Michel Bauwens

Control. And, you know, I actually tend to believe that the. So, you know, there's this woman, what's her name, Catherine Austin Fitts, and she says, okay, today, the war. So, you know, so you have a declining system, it loses legitimacy. So you have a fragmentation because the the integrating narrative loses legitimacy. Right? So you have

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Fragmentation. Fragmentation creates polarization because if you're

Michel Bauwens

Alone you're looking like where can I find the most support. Right. So this creates the pagans against the Christians, the Reformation against the Catholic Church. And I think today

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

The culture war, and I think

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

The culture war today is two factions in the ruling class. And this is where the juvenile comes in. You know, it's always

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

About alliances, jurisdictional alliances. So these factions are trying to get more strength by looking who can support us in the people. Right. And, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

The middle class, upper middle class, working class, rural. So they're trying to strengthen their, their coalitions. And so you have one coalition which wants to sacrifice the nation to the empire.

Michel Bauwens

You know, the globalists, as

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

The right wing would say. And I think that's real. And, you know, like the

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

Left,

Jarrad Hope

Think

Michel Bauwens

Their

Jarrad Hope

It's an accurate

Michel Bauwens

Image

Jarrad Hope

Assessment.

Michel Bauwens

Is.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Is the whiff one day. Their ideal is a world run by multi-stakeholder coalitions in in

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Domain's global domains, but dominated by financial capital. You know the

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Blackrocks of our world. And

Jarrad Hope

A

Michel Bauwens

Then

Jarrad Hope

Managed

Michel Bauwens

The

Jarrad Hope

Democracy,

Michel Bauwens

Other side.

Jarrad Hope

You know.

Michel Bauwens

Yes. You know, the other side is sacrificing the empire to the nation. So these

Michel Bauwens

Are this is Trump, you know, allied

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

To local business people, to the rural, to those who want to bring back industry and things to America, but they don't think they can continue to fund 800 bases abroad.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

And

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Think

Michel Bauwens

Know,

Jarrad Hope

Like

Michel Bauwens

And

Jarrad Hope

The.

Michel Bauwens

And

Jarrad Hope

Sorry.

Michel Bauwens

I, you know, I don't

Jarrad Hope

Go.

Michel Bauwens

Want to choose either side. I think either, you know, they both have strengths and weaknesses.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So I think that the commoners, this is how I think about it, is that the commoners or the people are self-creating this productive ecosystems that are partially translocal. You know, we should first of all strengthen our own power.

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

And then look at who's supporting our agenda. That's the way I think about it. So to so to not necessarily to choose sides, although I want to choose the side that gives me the maximum amount of freedom of speech and pluralism, you know, and

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

I'm not sure what side is the best for that. I actually, you know, increasingly tend to believe that, that the side is in power. Now, he's doing the worst in terms of suppressing

Michel Bauwens

Free speech.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. I think, like you know, some of the populist movements we're seeing or, you know, maybe nationalist movements, this sort of sacrificing the empire for, for the nation. I think they have a lot of really important points for understanding or criticizing the current status of, of our empire, right? Or of our civilization. But. At least how I see it. It's almost this kind of this return to to the single nation with, you know, a standard territory

Michel Bauwens

I

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

Think

Jarrad Hope

Don't

Michel Bauwens

That's

Jarrad Hope

Think is

Michel Bauwens

Ultimately

Jarrad Hope

Actually viable

Michel Bauwens

Also

Jarrad Hope

Against.

Michel Bauwens

Reactionary, right? Yes.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah, yeah, it's a very reaction,

Michel Bauwens

It's

Jarrad Hope

But

Michel Bauwens

Not a future.

Jarrad Hope

It's

Michel Bauwens

It's

Jarrad Hope

Also

Michel Bauwens

Not

Jarrad Hope

Not

Michel Bauwens

A future.

Jarrad Hope

Known.

Michel Bauwens

It's a way to react. Yeah, I agree

Jarrad Hope

So,

Michel Bauwens

With that.

Jarrad Hope

So I think, you know, for that to be viable, there almost needs to be like some kind of transnational policy network between those nations and to basically

Michel Bauwens

All right.

Jarrad Hope

Create a counterbalance to a globalist. So the point being is that the stage is at the global level, you know, for this iteration. And we'll probably, you know, depending on the timeline, it'll probably dictate how the world governs itself. Right? And I

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Don't know, maybe we'll get some kind of you know. Quasi utopian Star Trek military, you know, government controlling the world or I don't know what's going to look like.

Michel Bauwens

Right? Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

But

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

That's

Jarrad Hope

Guess

Michel Bauwens

What

Jarrad Hope

That

Michel Bauwens

Exciting.

Jarrad Hope

Kind of.

Michel Bauwens

And of course, you know, you know what they say in Chinese. May you live in interesting times, which apparently is a curse.

Jarrad Hope

We certainly

Michel Bauwens

And

Jarrad Hope

Do. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So, you know, we're gonna have a lot of swings. I think we have to expect wild swings in politics. You know, where, you know, if you look, for example, at Republicans in the US and what they want to do if they win power, some of it is frightening. You know, like closing the DEA, closing the I, I can live with that personally, but closing the DEA, maybe,

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

You know. So, you know, kicking out 50,000 people you know, on the first day comes in office. You know, I'm not saying I necessarily against it, but it's, you know, these are, like, destabilizing. If they do

Jarrad Hope

There.

Michel Bauwens

It, it's going to be very destabilizing. It's going to create massive resistance. You know, look at what's happening in Argentina. And, you know, with serious dangers of civil war in some countries, and

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

Especially

Jarrad Hope

Was about to

Michel Bauwens

I

Jarrad Hope

Ask

Michel Bauwens

Think

Jarrad Hope

You

Michel Bauwens

The

Jarrad Hope

If

Michel Bauwens

Us

Jarrad Hope

You think a

Michel Bauwens

Is

Jarrad Hope

Civil war would be on

Michel Bauwens

Well,

Jarrad Hope

The

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Table.

Michel Bauwens

Know, I'm not predicting it's going to happen, but I certainly think that the danger is there. And there are

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Some of these scientific you know institutes. I've forgot the name. There's one in Scandinavia. And, you know, they're based on what happened in Bosnia and Yugoslavia. And so they have quite objective criteria. And they say, like us is 70%.

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Right. Which is, you know,

Jarrad Hope

It's quite.

Michel Bauwens

It's not 100%, but it's or it's 70% of all

Jarrad Hope

Spicy

Michel Bauwens

The criteria

Jarrad Hope

Meatball.

Michel Bauwens

Which conditioned the eventual outbreak. And this is where, you know, Europe now is not in a good shape. I think

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

It's being vassalized by by the US and

Jarrad Hope

Yes.

Michel Bauwens

Doing things that are counter to its own interests,

Jarrad Hope

Interests.

Michel Bauwens

Which, by the way, is also typical for the end of an empire. So as you lose control of the of the for abroad, you, you come back to your near abroad. Right? And then you have to hyper

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Exploit. Your your near allies. In order to to to resist. So European is a bad shape. But Europe has a interconnected network of 400 cities with

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Long history were still integrated in their territorial regions. And that are very connected to each other. So we kind of primed for distributed. So, you know, if the, if the EU or the nation states collapse, we have this kind of underlying. And you, you know, you see the map of the Holy Roman Empire, it's, you know, it's very colored. It has like, you know, 80 different regions in Germany. And yet they all chose an emperor in that last for 1000 years. So that was like a, you know, a very stable, relatively distributed system. The US

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Has 40 cities which are not well connected except by plane. So the US is primed for regional breakup.

Jarrad Hope

Interesting.

Michel Bauwens

You know? And so that's maybe a good side of Europe is that we have all these, you know, all these historical cities where, you know, convivially built, architecturally built you know, they're very pleasant, you know, to live in.

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

I try to spend as much time

Michel Bauwens

I'm

Jarrad Hope

In Europe

Michel Bauwens

European.

Jarrad Hope

As I as I

Michel Bauwens

I'm

Jarrad Hope

Can.

Michel Bauwens

Still a bit

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

I'm still a bit patriotic. You know, I think it's still you know, we have things that that are likable.

Jarrad Hope

No no, no. I guess, like, you know, so going back to the sort of like, seed forms, you know, we've talked about, you know you know, the crypto as being a potential seed former and an evolution of open source technologies and, you know, creating these public goods. Is there any other seed forms that you identify at the moment?

Michel Bauwens

Well.

Jarrad Hope

And

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

I guess

Michel Bauwens

The two

Jarrad Hope

The.

Michel Bauwens

For me are peer

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

To peer and the Commons. And they

Jarrad Hope

Sure.

Michel Bauwens

Reiterate everywhere like, you know,

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

So that's

Jarrad Hope

See.

Michel Bauwens

Basically what my week is about. You know, I have 25,000 articles. Per domain business, spirituality and you will see that everywhere the same thing is happening. These

Jarrad Hope

Wow.

Michel Bauwens

Seed forms are emerging, but those are like the two common points.

Michel Bauwens

So.

Jarrad Hope

I see,

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

That's

Jarrad Hope

See.

Michel Bauwens

Why I say peer to peer networks based on commons. Right.

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Gotcha.

Michel Bauwens

You need a you need a common infrastructure for collective action. If you have only individual then nobody

Michel Bauwens

Wants to invest in the things that we all need to do together to be stronger together. So that's why

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

You need commons, right? And that's why we needed states in geography. Because otherwise, you know privately you why would I buy you know, invest in a road.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

You know that I'm using only

Jarrad Hope

The

Michel Bauwens

Once

Jarrad Hope

Private

Michel Bauwens

A month.

Jarrad Hope

Market tends to, you know,

Michel Bauwens

Right. So the collective

Michel Bauwens

Action

Jarrad Hope

Look

Michel Bauwens

Problem.

Jarrad Hope

At short tum gains,

Michel Bauwens

Right,

Jarrad Hope

You know.

Michel Bauwens

Which was solved by the state as a collective actor.

Jarrad Hope

Brandt. Oh. That's

Michel Bauwens

And,

Jarrad Hope

Interesting. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Know, and so at the network level, we also need to solve the collective action problem.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And I think that's the commons and not the state.

Jarrad Hope

Now I

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Can

Michel Bauwens

Know,

Jarrad Hope

See that.

Michel Bauwens

We have para states, right? So you look at, at open source communities, they do have these for benefit associations like the Wikimedia

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Foundation and the Drupal Association. And, you know, which acts as a collective entity, you know, to broker agreements between multiple stakeholders, right.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And crypto for, you know, for some reason, is trying to avoid human deliberation and go, you know, to a kind of incentive based consensus. And, you know, I still not sure if that's going to work fully, but I think where it makes sense is that, you know, it's the evolution of trust, right? So you have. Big little sister. Little brother. Tribal.

Michel Bauwens

You can always go to some family member. Everybody is your aunt and your uncle, and everybody loves you. And you know, you go, you solve problems through talking together and maybe the elders, you know, you have to go in front of the elders. Then we scaled up to empires, right?

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

So then you get big Father, like, why are we working together over long distance? Because we fear the same God and the punishments by the priests. Right.

Jarrad Hope

Yes.

Michel Bauwens

Then we move to the nation state, big brother, because we are all equal citizens and the state is our big brother. I

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Think, somewhat controversially, we now in Big Brother, which is, you know, so because we are feminizing and 70% of universities are led by women and and so it's, it's, you know, it's for your safety. Right. We're going to protect you. So

Jarrad Hope

Now.

Michel Bauwens

It's like a benevolent, benevolent surveillance.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

And, you know,

Jarrad Hope

It's

Michel Bauwens

That's

Jarrad Hope

Almost

Michel Bauwens

What

Jarrad Hope

Like

Michel Bauwens

Wokeism

Jarrad Hope

There's now

Michel Bauwens

Is

Jarrad Hope

A maternalism.

Michel Bauwens

Essentially. Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

You know, and and this is like a gender difference, you know, like, this has been studied like 70, 70% of the men would say, we we want truth.

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

And 7,070% of the of the women would say, we want safety. We want to protect the, you know, the weak.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So there's, you know, there's outliers in both groups, but like, there's this general thing of value differentiation, right. And so that's why we now have censorship in the name of the good. Right. Like

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

You can't critique minorities. And so, so but it's, it's very, you know, very repressive I think like, you know, this like

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

All

Jarrad Hope

Like the intentions

Michel Bauwens

The things you can't

Jarrad Hope

Are good,

Michel Bauwens

Say

Jarrad Hope

Right? But

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

The mechanisms

Michel Bauwens

The intention

Jarrad Hope

Are used to

Michel Bauwens

Is

Jarrad Hope

Employ

Michel Bauwens

Good.

Jarrad Hope

It.

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Know, it's the protective intention.

Jarrad Hope

But

Jarrad Hope

The mechanism.

Michel Bauwens

And.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. Is.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah. And

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So I think we need to go back to little brother, little sister, but on a distributed network. Right.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

And,

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

And create smaller communities that can decide autonomously in there. So it's going from tribalism to neo tribalism, not

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Kinship based but affinity based.

Jarrad Hope

Definitely

Michel Bauwens

Right. And if

Jarrad Hope

I.

Michel Bauwens

You think about it integrally, you know, like Ken Wilber stuff, right? You might be familiar with that. So the idea of transcend

Jarrad Hope

A little. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

And include. Right. So we have tribal then we have these empires. We have the

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Axial revolution which creates like communitarian systems like, you know, Judaism and, and Buddhism and Christianity. Then we

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Have the capitalist you know, entrepreneurial layer, modernity,

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Science, technology. Postmodern layer, which is like, you know, we should be critical about our own and like, see through our own determinations and, you know, anyway, and I think we need to kind of like, you know, take things from every system, right, in a new in a new kind of integrative framework, a meta integrative idea. And so, you know, I work with Daniel Schmachtenberg and his team

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

With people like Zachary Stein. I'm, you know, I'm contracted to the Civilization Research Institute. And, you know, we talk about the meta crisis there, right? Which is the idea that. So the poly crisis is we have multiple crises and they're all related. And you can't solve one problem without the others. The meta crisis is a one step further is we are looking to generative common patterns. That are seen in all these crises. And so if we can work on these patterns, then we can solve all the crises at the same time. So

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

I'm not you know, I'm not sure they're going to succeed. But that's the, that's kind of the, the aim. And then what I'm doing, you know, in that project, because that is not my specialty, is confronting these kind of systems theory, cybernetics theory with civilizational history. Right. Because the problem with systems theory is that you have agents in a network. There's no subjectivity. There's no culture, there's no history. And I think for human beings that is actually very important. So, you know,

Michel Bauwens

Like

Jarrad Hope

I've come to the same

Michel Bauwens

Which

Jarrad Hope

Conclusion,

Michel Bauwens

Yeah,

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

We're trying

Jarrad Hope

Realized.

Michel Bauwens

To merge, you know, these two approaches in something that is like a you know, I'm not saying we're going to succeed, but that's, that's what we're trying to do. And then the other

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Thing I might

Jarrad Hope

Like,

Michel Bauwens

Want to say

Jarrad Hope

Just

Michel Bauwens

Just

Jarrad Hope

Just

Michel Bauwens

I'll finish

Jarrad Hope

On that

Michel Bauwens

With this.

Jarrad Hope

Note.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

Okay. Go,

Michel Bauwens

Okay.

Jarrad Hope

Go. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Go ahead. No, no. Go ahead.

Michel Bauwens

I just want to

Michel Bauwens

Say

Jarrad Hope

Just.

Michel Bauwens

I have another project you might want to know about.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

But go

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Ahead.

Jarrad Hope

I mean so on that notion of like, trust I think for me, what I got into crypto when one of the selling points was this notion of like, trustlessness, right? If you're you know, one of the new priests, you can read the code and you understand how everything works. You can trust the mathematics, right? Of course, the average person can't do that. And so, like, they have to rely on social proof or heuristics to, to do that. But,

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

What I actually what that actually was about, I realized later, was the erosion of a high trust society that I was embedded in. Right. And like, that sort

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Of part of the culture was actually what I was looking for was this this high trust society that I used to be part of as a, as a child and in my, in my, you know, in my youth, I guess,

Michel Bauwens

So what

Michel Bauwens

Was your background? Where were you living?

Jarrad Hope

In Australia. Yeah. So.

Michel Bauwens

All

Jarrad Hope

But

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

I've been traveling I've been, you know, digital nomads for probably the past sort of 17 or 18 years

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Now, so. Yeah. Did

Michel Bauwens

Well.

Jarrad Hope

They find any of these before you talk about your, your next project or the other project you're working on? That's interesting. Did they find any metapatterns yet? Or are they still you know, trying

Michel Bauwens

No,

Jarrad Hope

To to

Michel Bauwens

They

Jarrad Hope

Discover

Michel Bauwens

They

Jarrad Hope

Those.

Michel Bauwens

Have some. I, I haven't really studied it that much yet.

Jarrad Hope

Okay.

Michel Bauwens

But you know, like, misaligned regulation,

Michel Bauwens

Social traps. So they, they use this kind of

Jarrad Hope

I see.

Michel Bauwens

Vocabulary,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

But, you know, my own project, which is to read all the macro historians, I can tell

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

You, it's like, so, so much already

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

That I have a hard time getting other stuff, you know?

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

So I'm really so I've read so there's three phases in macro history.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Well, I actually start with Spengler, right. Because he's the first non-eurocentric macro historian. So in the 19th century, everybody believes in progress. And Europe is the highest stage of progress. And so everywhere if everybody copies Europe, then, you know, then we're good, right? And Spengler is the first one, even though it was a conservative to say no, the West is is just one of civilizations. It will also decline eventually. So there was a big shock. And so then you have a whole number of cultural historians Carl Quigley, Arnold Toynbee, and they react and improve and critique Spengler. But within that cultural framework with culture, I mean that humans have agency. That

Michel Bauwens

Values matter, right? So a civilization for Spangler is. Like a very particular orientation to the world that is unique

Michel Bauwens

To that civilization. So it will say things like the Greeks, the body in space. So all

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Their sculpture is all about the body in space. There's no transcendence.

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

In, in the Hellenistic civilization, it's it's all embodied. For the Christians, it's immediately when it starts the

Jarrad Hope

So,

Michel Bauwens

Gothic cathedral infinity.

Michel Bauwens

The you know, for the Byzantium's and the and the Islam's, which he, he actually puts together in some way, even though they're different. It's, you know, it's round, right. It's a protective the protective dome. So

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

So that's how we you know so

Jarrad Hope

Fascinating.

Michel Bauwens

That's cultural. It's so every

Michel Bauwens

Civilization has it calls it a prime symbol.

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Then you have spiritualists reactions and that's Aurobindo. The yada Sadhan Sarkar in India. So these are people who say no culture is actually also spiritual. And so they try to

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Kind of like synthesize evolution and modernity with, with with their traditions and their. Okay, so in the 70s, then you have a second layer, which is world system analysis, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

And these are basically the neo-Marxist neo materialist. So Wallerstein and and they look at geopolitics and, you know, productive systems and which, you know, is also very interesting. You know, I just see it as a, as a perspective. And then the last one which is still going on is called Big History, which is the same as what what Daniel is doing, which is looking at the patterns of change behind the world of matter, life and human history. Right. So for example

Jarrad Hope

All right.

Michel Bauwens

Emergence. Bifurcation. You find them in nature. You find them in life. You find them in human culture. So that's so. But you know, it's a it's a big field right.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. And a lot of history to go through.

Michel Bauwens

Yes.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. And what was that your what was the latest project you're working on you were

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Going to mention?

Michel Bauwens

Yeah. No. So this is

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

A so I, this is a story. So I went to for the first time to to Montenegro last year in April.

Jarrad Hope

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was there for

Michel Bauwens

And.

Jarrad Hope

The SSC week, you

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Know.

Michel Bauwens

And, you know, I was quite critical about crypto and everything. I

Michel Bauwens

Had my resistance. Let's see. But I sat on a table, you know, and there was a climate denialist. So somebody who doesn't believe in climate change, there was a

Jarrad Hope

Get it.

Michel Bauwens

An impact investors so that some people would call a green washer and there was a deep adaptationist, you know, collapses. But the fact that they could talk together peacefully on one

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Table, you know, which is almost impossible now on social media and even elsewhere, because why they had a commons, the commons, they are building the infrastructure that will be good for all of them together. Right. And so they

Jarrad Hope

Yes.

Michel Bauwens

Can put their differences between brackets and focus on their commonality. And, and so that is the power of the commons. And so when I realized. Hum how community centric and common centric crypto was. You know, I

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Was more looking at the speculative and, you know, the criminal part

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

And all

Jarrad Hope

The

Michel Bauwens

Of that,

Jarrad Hope

Outside

Michel Bauwens

Right?

Jarrad Hope

Face of it doesn't look particularly

Michel Bauwens

Yeah,

Jarrad Hope

Great,

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

But like the

Michel Bauwens

So

Jarrad Hope

Actual

Michel Bauwens

Then

Jarrad Hope

Core

Michel Bauwens

The next step

Jarrad Hope

And.

Michel Bauwens

Is right. The next step is, you know, I give my lecture there, I gave two lectures there and there's some Chinese people and they come to me and they're like, oh wow, this is fantastic. I never heard this story before. And so it turns out to be the global

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

Chinese commons, which is a Chinese crypto nomadic network, because crypto

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Is, you know, is is is mostly illegal in China. So

Michel Bauwens

They, you know, they become digital nomads so they can do their work and then go back to their families and not do anything illegal in, in China, basically. And,

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And they said, oh, we based in Shanghai. Wow. You know what? I

Jarrad Hope

A stone's

Michel Bauwens

Have to go

Jarrad Hope

Throw

Michel Bauwens

To

Jarrad Hope

Away.

Michel Bauwens

Montenegro to meet people who who have their headquarters in Shanghai. And so I'm, I'm doing research coordination for the GCC as well.

Jarrad Hope

Oh, wow. Nice.

Michel Bauwens

And so that's also helps me a lot to, you know, to become closer to the crypto world because, you know, I'm not a crypto person. I'm a person that tries to build bridges between

Jarrad Hope

Yes.

Michel Bauwens

Domains. Right? And so I'll know much less than you about crypto, but

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

I will still know more than a lot of people who are skeptical or don't know anything about crypto. And I can make bridges between different domains because I had a kind of varied and rich life which put me in, you know, many different spaces. You know, I've been in technology. I created two startups. I, you know, so I manage SMEs. I worked for two multinationals, you know, in strategy. I, you know, I was a radical in my youth and I was a, you know, at the top of an international organization. I had a very intense spiritual search when I was young. So, you know, I've done the eastern stuff. I've done. I was I've done alchemy. And so, you know, at some point, you know, you you are able to draw from different worlds that normally don't

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Speak to each other. Right, but and that I can somehow translate more or less. So, you know, I'm not saying I know everything, you know, of course, that's not the case. But when you've been in a world, right,

Jarrad Hope

They.

Michel Bauwens

You understand it better than if you're just, like, reading from outside, right?

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

You have to interact with

Jarrad Hope

Definitely.

Michel Bauwens

The people, understand the culture from the inside. And so, you know, after a while that gives you something that a lot of people don't have because, you

Jarrad Hope

You have

Michel Bauwens

Know,

Jarrad Hope

A broader perspective,

Michel Bauwens

Probably for

Jarrad Hope

You know?

Michel Bauwens

Good reason, because there were not as unhappy as I was when I was young. So, you know, I just had to do it to search for like, the solution, you know, and then at some point you discover you're just as fucked up as everybody else. And

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

Then it's

Jarrad Hope

Mean,

Michel Bauwens

Okay,

Jarrad Hope

There's a

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

Lot

Michel Bauwens

Know?

Jarrad Hope

Of rabbit holes that I would have loved to if we had more time to like, you know, delve into their right, like, particularly on the alchemy side of things. And, you know, I guess that's very occult adjacent as well. And I find that

Michel Bauwens

Yeah,

Jarrad Hope

Sort of topic

Michel Bauwens

I've been

Jarrad Hope

Very

Michel Bauwens

A Templar.

Jarrad Hope

Fascinating.

Michel Bauwens

I've been a mason. I've been a Rosicrucian.

Jarrad Hope

Wow.

Michel Bauwens

I you know, I

Jarrad Hope

Incredible.

Michel Bauwens

Wanted to know it all from the inside. And so

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

I spent some

Jarrad Hope

But.

Michel Bauwens

Years just, you know.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. I think, like you know Ethereum is I've been on the inside for Ethereum for, you know, for basically the duration of its existence. In Bitcoin a little bit earlier than that. And It was almost like a quasi religious experience for me, in a way, because it was like the first time that I had found people who could have, who could actually hold different points of view in, in

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Mind and have an intelligent conversation and non-judgmental conversation

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

About,

Michel Bauwens

That's so

Jarrad Hope

You know,

Michel Bauwens

Important.

Jarrad Hope

Different ideas.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah, that's

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So important. And so one of the things I learned from Zachary Stein, you know, he talks about invisible colleges, right. So

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

When things are fragmenting and tribalised and polarizing and the people in the middle lose, lose their influence, like, you know, like Erasmus was very popular. But once they started with the Reformation Wars, nobody listened to him because he,

Jarrad Hope

Ryan

Michel Bauwens

You know,

Jarrad Hope

Wasn't

Michel Bauwens

He didn't

Jarrad Hope

On

Michel Bauwens

Really choose

Jarrad Hope

The fence.

Michel Bauwens

A side. Right. So

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

So what you then have are invisible colleges, which is smaller groups, right, are going to protect themselves to be still be able to think and exchange. Right. And

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

That, by the way, was the role of the Masonic tradition. You know, that was where Catholics and Reformation and atheists could talk together and different classes could come together without everybody else knowing that they were talking together. That's, you know, if you live in a highly repressive environment, that's what you need to do. And so I think, you know, that's to a certain degree we need to do this now, you know, because we have no guarantee that we'll have free speech left in ten years or so. It's, you

Jarrad Hope

That's

Michel Bauwens

Know, I'm.

Jarrad Hope

Why I work on the technologies that I do.

Michel Bauwens

You

Jarrad Hope

So

Michel Bauwens

Know, to be

Jarrad Hope

At

Michel Bauwens

Honest,

Jarrad Hope

Least

Michel Bauwens

Like on

Jarrad Hope

You

Michel Bauwens

Facebook,

Jarrad Hope

Know the cat's

Michel Bauwens

I

Jarrad Hope

Out of

Michel Bauwens

Quit

Jarrad Hope

The bag.

Michel Bauwens

Facebook because I couldn't even share, like, scientific peer reviewed material, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Like it's

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Insane, you know? And so I'm on Twitter. I think Twitter is more pluralistic and it's not perfect, but it's more pluralistic. And, you know, if you can't do it publicly, you have to do it in smaller groups. And

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Of course that's the problem with crypto. You know, like the fragmentation, right? Which is like, you know, 500 telegram groups. So one, one thing, you know, and it's like, oh, God, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Well,

Michel Bauwens

You can

Jarrad Hope

There's.

Michel Bauwens

Spend day and

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

Night, you

Jarrad Hope

There's.

Michel Bauwens

Know, and you still don't know, like only 5% of what's happening in a community.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. Like there's almost an interesting parallel with, say, you know, the establishment of the United States of America and The Federalist Papers in particular, where you basically had a bunch of anons, you know, writing letters to each other and, you know, regardless of the content, they were, you know, fearful of, of British rule and rightly so for for some reasons.

Michel Bauwens

Right? Of course.

Jarrad Hope

And crypto is kind of doing the similar thing. You know, you have these anons that are and other, you know, other political groups out there

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Being anonymous, publishing their information like their ideas

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

And

Michel Bauwens

Censorship

Jarrad Hope

Then evolving

Michel Bauwens

Resistance.

Jarrad Hope

Their thoughts.

Michel Bauwens

You know, zero knowledge proof. Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

I think, you know, that's necessary to protect these trans local groups,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah. I

Jarrad Hope

Think, like, you

Michel Bauwens

And,

Jarrad Hope

Know, in the pursuit

Michel Bauwens

And

Jarrad Hope

Of truth.

Michel Bauwens

And the

Jarrad Hope

You

Michel Bauwens

Transfer

Jarrad Hope

Need that.

Michel Bauwens

Of value,

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

I think is very important. Right. You like, if you don't have capital, you can't win. Right? If you if you're living at the edges and you cannot invest, invest in the expansion of your system, you're very marginal. So the capacity

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

To transfer value. You know, is also a crucial aspect of crypto. And, you know, you

Jarrad Hope

Oh,

Michel Bauwens

Talked

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely.

Michel Bauwens

About religion, right. And so.

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

That's also what I kind of discovered, and most people will be critical about it. But I think you need that, right? You need something

Jarrad Hope

I think

Michel Bauwens

That transcends

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

Your your daily circumstance. And Viktor Frankl in The Man in Search of Meaning,

Jarrad Hope

People.

Michel Bauwens

Which, you know, he was in the concentration camps, right? He said only two kinds of people survived. The communists and the Catholics. The Catholics,

Jarrad Hope

Hmm'hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Because they have vertical transcendence. And they could you know, I'm going to have an and you know, okay. So they could kind of detach themselves and the Communist because they had a temporal utopia right in the future. So I'm not saying both were right or wrong, but

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

I'm saying

Jarrad Hope

But

Michel Bauwens

Is

Jarrad Hope

Like

Michel Bauwens

The

Jarrad Hope

It's

Michel Bauwens

Capacity

Jarrad Hope

That they

Michel Bauwens

To

Jarrad Hope

Had

Michel Bauwens

Project

Jarrad Hope

The.

Michel Bauwens

Yourself in the future is crucially important. So what I'm doing, why I'm interested in cycles, is because the capacity, when you are in declining phase to go beyond the declining phase, right to to look at the next up cycle

Jarrad Hope

I'm.

Michel Bauwens

And to have sound ideas about what the next upside could, could look like. Right. And so that's what I'm doing, is like analyzing seed forms.

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

And thinking like, is that working? If it's working, what does it mean? And can we deduce from that, you know, like characteristics of the future system that that are emerging and.

Jarrad Hope

So what are the different sort of scenarios that you foresee in the future, like your, you know, you think are likely and you know,

Michel Bauwens

Yeah,

Jarrad Hope

Can you pin

Michel Bauwens

I

Jarrad Hope

Them to any

Michel Bauwens

Have

Jarrad Hope

Kind

Michel Bauwens

Four

Jarrad Hope

Of cycle.

Michel Bauwens

Worlds, you know, it's like a four world theory.

Michel Bauwens

And there are four combinations of. So centralizing global. Versus local and distributed. So they're not entirely the same these two words. But you know, I have only one quadrant. So I put them together and then for profit and for benefit. So centralized for profit uses peer to peer and the commons in a fake way. To extract. From human cooperation so that this is what I call net article capitalism. You know, the Googles and the Ubers. And I think there's a shift in capitalism from commodity based capitalism. You know, I call it Marxist capitalism because they there's an extraction of surplus value from human labor and nature to systems that directly exploit human cooperation. So they create platforms,

Jarrad Hope

So.

Michel Bauwens

We exchange and we work and they tax so that we're back to rent. Right to

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

This is feudal. This is they're not profit makers in the sense that they make things that they sell a higher price. They taxes. Right. Just as a serf had to give half of his produce to be able to use the land. Right. That's so even capitalists today are exploited by them, because you have to give 30% of your profit in order to access the platforms, sometimes 70%. So then you have

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Distributed capitalism, which is libertarianism. And so the idea is to to make everybody in a small entrepreneur who can, you know, autonomously make agreements and, and create and share value. But it's still kind of for profit oriented. Then you have urban commons local for benefit oriented and the global open source world. Right. So these are four different systems, all based on peer to peer and in different combinations. They all exist and they all compete with each other. And

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Then of course, what is interesting is when you start having hybrids, right. Like crypto is evolving. To incorporate open source. Right. And what I want

Michel Bauwens

Is a crypto also incorporates the urban commons.

Jarrad Hope

Right.

Michel Bauwens

Because

Jarrad Hope

Well

Michel Bauwens

Then we have

Jarrad Hope

I mean there

Michel Bauwens

Three

Jarrad Hope

Certainly

Michel Bauwens

Against

Jarrad Hope

Exists

Michel Bauwens

One.

Jarrad Hope

Within crypto. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Jarrad Hope

There.

Michel Bauwens

I mean, they're all, you know, wi fi and all that. They're trying it.

Jarrad Hope

No.

Michel Bauwens

But what I'm, what I'm critiquing is the lack of connection between all the people in the cities of the renewable energy co-ops and, you know, collective access to organic food and and real car sharing and cooperative housing and cohousing. And then they're not connected at all to the crypto world and vice versa. And

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

I would so I wrote something called crypto for real, where I call for, you know, these alliances. This is what you know, that's my particular point of view, what I would like to see.

Jarrad Hope

That would be really nice. Yeah. For sure. Those ideas, like were very prominent, like, even early early on in Ethereum's life cycle. And Ethereum has like a different sort of affinity, cultural affinity group around it than, say, the Bitcoiners do. Right?

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Which is also quite interesting to to note that, like these different public programable chains or public chains have their own sets of AI you know, behavioral characteristics, you know, virtues and these sort of things. But I think, you know, part of we're taking a long detour because there is a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built and ensuring things

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

Are scalable while maintaining the properties that we care about. And like, that's why you don't really see a very large decentralized application ecosystem. It exists. Sure. But like, it's kind

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Of in a almost like a halfway house, like a web 2.5 where you

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Jarrad Hope

Have,

Michel Bauwens

You know, and

Jarrad Hope

You

Michel Bauwens

The interfaces

Jarrad Hope

Know.

Michel Bauwens

Are often like, you know, I mean, I use a wallet, but to be honest, I still find it very complex. And

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

I often have to ask a friend, you know, I would do screen sharing.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

You know, maybe

Jarrad Hope

I

Michel Bauwens

It's my

Jarrad Hope

Mean, it's

Michel Bauwens

My

Jarrad Hope

Like rebuilding

Michel Bauwens

Generational

Jarrad Hope

The net

Michel Bauwens

Handicap,

Jarrad Hope

Again.

Michel Bauwens

But I think it's way, way too complicated.

Jarrad Hope

It

Michel Bauwens

And,

Jarrad Hope

Is. Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

You know, a lot of the, like, publishing portals. Yeah, there's still a long way to go. But

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

The thing is,

Jarrad Hope

Gotta

Michel Bauwens

It's

Jarrad Hope

Start

Michel Bauwens

Been

Jarrad Hope

Somewhere.

Michel Bauwens

Going on for, you know. It's been going on, what, for 15 or 10 years. So the thing is, when Bitcoin goes down and the crypto goes down and you're still doing it. That's that's very important, right? Because that means that it's not just greed. It's not just

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Speculation. You really believe in it. So that's where the religious aspect, you know, it's an ideology also. And

Jarrad Hope

Yes, it really

Michel Bauwens

We

Jarrad Hope

Is.

Michel Bauwens

Either have religion or we have ideology, you know,

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And it doesn't mean it's true or false, but, you know, it's a way to make sense of the world. And it gives you you need something transcendent, right? You need something that's beyond you. Because if you just

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

Follow your feelings Monday, you like it. Tuesday you hate it. So

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

If you want to be committed

Jarrad Hope

It's not

Michel Bauwens

To

Jarrad Hope

A

Michel Bauwens

Something,

Jarrad Hope

Grounded

Michel Bauwens

You have

Jarrad Hope

Rock.

Michel Bauwens

To believe. You have to believe that it's more than that. You have to be willing to make sacrifices.

Jarrad Hope

You

Michel Bauwens

And

Jarrad Hope

Know,

Michel Bauwens

I think

Jarrad Hope

I'm

Michel Bauwens

Crypto

Jarrad Hope

No stranger

Michel Bauwens

Has that.

Jarrad Hope

To that.

Michel Bauwens

You know

Jarrad Hope

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Crypto has

Jarrad Hope

Yeah,

Michel Bauwens

That.

Jarrad Hope

Absolutely. No, I

Michel Bauwens

I.

Jarrad Hope

Believe it does. And I feel that for a large part of that, I'm an embodiment of it. And, you know, the sort of beer runs I really appreciate for this, you know, for the exact reason that you mentioned that the the people who are here for the right reasons stay right, and they continue

Michel Bauwens

All right.

Jarrad Hope

Building and they also continue building almost on faith because, you know, their runway

Michel Bauwens

Right.

Jarrad Hope

Or their, you know, like

Michel Bauwens

But

Jarrad Hope

The

Michel Bauwens

Faith

Jarrad Hope

Amount of capital

Michel Bauwens

Moves mountains.

Jarrad Hope

They have. Yeah. And I guess before before we jump off I was wondering, you know, if there's any book recommendations you might have on some of these topics, particularly around cycles.

Michel Bauwens

All right. Well, okay. You have Peter Turchin. Secular cycles.

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

And he has a new book. I,

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

I, I enjoyed fourth generation as well. Or

Michel Bauwens

Is it a fourth generation? I think so, right. You know that famous book about the generational cycle.

Jarrad Hope

Yeah, yeah.

Michel Bauwens

Now the fourth turning. I'm sorry. It's the fourth turning.

Jarrad Hope

There we go.

Michel Bauwens

One book I really like is Kojin Karatani. It's called The Structure of World History, which is a really great summary of, you know, many of these thinkers and doesn't really focus on cycles, but it's it's very good. So I have, I have a section in my wiki called Civilization Analysis with very detailed overviews of all these authors

Jarrad Hope

Mm.hmm.

Michel Bauwens

I have. I have a site called a page called sources of P2P theory. Where, you know, I survey all the things that influence my thinking over the years. I have another one called What you should read about the comments, and maybe in the description I can send them to you and you can put it in, in the description and, this is more than one book, but they, you know, they can choose which book that appeals most to them.

Jarrad Hope

That's fantastic. Yeah. Thank you very much. And thank you for spending the time with us. Really appreciate it.

Michel Bauwens

Yeah.

Michel Bauwens

With pleasure. I really enjoyed this conversation.