Michel Bauwens: P2P & Commons Strategy | Logos Podcast with Jarrad Hope
In this conversation, Jarrad Hope discusses the transformational impact of crypto and peer-to-peer technologies with Michel Bauwens, highlighting the potential seed forms for a new decentralized and commons-oriented societal organization. They acknowledge the complexity and the challenges of the current state of crypto, stressing the importance of building an inclusive and more user-friendly infrastructure while maintaining the pursuit of pluralistic and intelligent discourse.
Michel Bauwens
Any competition for scarce resources leads to oligarchy. Why? Because it's a it's a game. And every iteration of the game, some is more lucky or more clever than you. So they already have more resources for the second game and then the third game. And so whether it's land or money, you, you see it, you know, that is always this tendency towards oligarchy.
Jarrad Hope
Oh, thank you so much, Michel, for joining me. You don't quite know it, but your ideas and the peer to peer Foundation wiki was very transformative in my thinking. I think I came across it around sort of 2006, 2007 when I was looking at the Pirate Party.
Michel Bauwens
That was right at the beginning.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah, yeah, I was very in much in the sort of like file sharing side of peer to peer networks. But coming across the peer to peer foundation and what they were doing with the Pirate Party, I kind of started realizing the broader scope of peer to peer technologies. Peer production and the notion of a public good and building these as these protocols and these networks as public goods is something that stayed with me since. And I've been trying to kind of build that out. So that's like one reason. Also, another reason I'd like to speak with you is, you know, you've talked about the network society. You've been very concerned with civilizational transitions, as I understand it. And I'm very much about this notion of cyber states and so on. So, yeah, I guess before we get into any of that, would you like to introduce yourself?
Michel Bauwens
All right. So. Yeah. So my name is obviously Michel Bauwens. I'm from Belgium originally. I would say, unfortunately, I'm 66. You know, start starts to count. And I live in northern Thailand in Chiang Mai, which last week was the most polluted city in the world. But was saying I nevertheless recommend outside of these hazing months, which is, you know, like March to May. It's it's quite a wonderful place to live normally. And it's, you know, one of the places where the number of digital nomads is very, very high. And it used to be Westerners. Now it's like a lot of Chinese people are coming are coming here. So, you know, the last few meetings of digital nomads that I attended were like full of Asian people from India, from Pakistan, from everywhere. So, you know, you kind of feel the shift also in the zeitgeist and the vibe, you know, the Westernization is in the air. What else should I say? Yeah. So I founded a peer to peer foundation that was in I took a two year sabbatical in in 2002, 2003, which was the purpose was to study transitions. And I came to the conclusion that before you have, you know, really radical transformations like revolutions and stuff, that this is really only the last stage. And it only happens when society cannot adapt peacefully. Then, you know, you need something more violent to to shake its foundations. But that mostly what's of importance is seed forms. So, you know, the way you should imagine it. And I know this is already outside of self presentation.
Jarrad Hope
No,
Michel Bauwens
But
Jarrad Hope
This is great.
Michel Bauwens
The way you should, the way you should imagine it. So you have a relatively stable system you know, that has solved some basic societal issue and that as a set of institutions that, as it has solved its institutions, creates its own problems, as it were, which can no longer be solved with, with, with that solution. And so at that point, people start quitting either voluntarily because they have like an anti anticipatory consciousness or because they have to because the old system no longer provides what they need and expect. And so these seed forms are experimentations in a new logic which eventually will find each other, create subsystems, and eventually be strong enough to, you know, to transform the whole, the whole civilization. So that's the way I look at the world. And so, of course, right now I look at the world at around two specific things, which is peer to peer, which is the capacity for translocal self-organization. So that's, you know, you have peer to peer in a tribal environment with, you know, a small village and people can you know, can solve their issues by talking to their family members, mostly because that's what tribes were about, about kinship. I'm talking about you know, what we are doing here and all the systems that go with it.
Michel Bauwens
So the fact that people can join ecosystems of collaboration which transcend pure geography. And, you know, that's not to say that's the only reality, but that is certainly to say that this will change the old reality and that I think this is civilizational because civilization was actually a relation between agriculture and the city. So it's the surplus of agriculture allows you to create a new class writing class. And, you know, which was a minority, and the writing class created markets and states you know, to kind of upscale from tribal arrangements. And I think we're reaching a new pivot. So I think this is actually more like A5000 year shift rather than just like a, you know, a 50 year shift or even 500 years shift. I think we are moving towards this new form of mutual coordination. So distributed coordination. By Pierce. But to do that they need comments. So this is the second concept. So the second concept is comments which is shared resources that are managed or created or defended by a community or a group of stakeholders using their own regulation. And so that immediately distinguishes from the market and the state. So,
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
You know, without without saying or expecting that they will disappear anytime soon. I do think that we are creating this new sphere. So I don't know if you know. Mark Stallman from the center for the Study of Digital Life. He has a good way to. He says you have East and West, and now you have digital. So you have this
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Kind of like, you know, market centric versus state centric competition between the West and the Russia-china axis and the BRICs and, you know, mostly allied now with with them. So that's like the struggle in the geosphere. But then we
Jarrad Hope
All
Michel Bauwens
Have
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
A new layer and we come with our own solutions. And then of course there's a big debate and maybe we can have that debate whether the, you know, purely libertarian solution is, is the solution or whether, you know, it's some something else or some kind of hybrid adaptation between, you know, the the earlier layer, physical layer and this new layer. So that's the whole debate. I think that that is of interest is like, you know, where are we going? And so
Jarrad Hope
The.
Michel Bauwens
If you if you study civilization, I and I will stop, I promise, you
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Know, and especially civilization transition of the past. I think this gives you a lot of patterns that, you know, without saying they will be repeated in the same way. It's still, you know, allows you to think like, what if, right? What if this pattern, you know, is now also operative in this transition? And how would it be different once we have the digital? So that's the kind of what I use
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
To my thinking. I look at the end of Rome and, you know, like medieval I love medieval society, Western medieval society. I think it's a very
Jarrad Hope
Same.
Michel Bauwens
Good image of a distributed system. You know, it
Jarrad Hope
Definitely.
Michel Bauwens
Was full of contracts, as you know, you know, not digital contracts, but it was contract based society,
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Very local, but at the same time, a unified culture through, you know, through the monks and the Catholic Church. And again, I'm not saying this to say we're going towards the same, but I think it's very useful to study patterns of the past and see if they apply or not, and whether they are transformed or not, and how they are transformed, and whether there's new things that, you know, that didn't exist before. But it helps you see the present especially, you know, because we are in a presentist moment, right, where people can't see anything like scales. So and they can't project themselves. And that's, that's very dangerous, right? If
Jarrad Hope
Definitely.
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Cannot project yourself. And, you know, and there's basically three two ways to deal with that one. One is transcendence. You know, you become spiritual and you choose the vertical dimension and you kind of like move away from the world in a certain way. Or you can have a horizontal transcendence, which is like to have a long enough view that you can project yourself beyond the catastrophe. Which, you know, every civilization transition also is so and that can give you strength and hope. And I think that's what I'm trying to do with, you know, my narratives about peer to peer and the Commons.
Jarrad Hope
Right. Nice. I mean, thank you for that. There's a lot to unpack and I'd love to get into so I guess, like when it comes to this sort of like five year, 5000 year or 5000 year shift where are we in that sort of period? I guess, in your mind, like, if we bring this to, like, a more concrete, like, I assume that you you think
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
We're undergoing this civilizational shift?
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
And then, like, what is the agriculture equivalent we're talking about here?
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Is this the the net or or or,
Michel Bauwens
Okay,
Jarrad Hope
You know, just
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Instantaneous
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Communications.
Michel Bauwens
Let me say a bit about cycles. Maybe first. So
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
What? So what I believe is that we are in a concatenation of cycles. I hope that's a good English word. What I mean
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Is that a lot of cycles which are in the descending phase are, you know, coming together and making the crisis very intense. So we have a kondratieff cycle. This is the cycle of the political economy, which is about 50 years, you know, has a upswing, peak and downswing and then a sudden systemic crisis. This is rather
Michel Bauwens
Easy, I think, to pinpoint because. So starting in 45, you know, we had an upswing. The middle was 73. You know, we had the oil crisis and everything. And I think definitely 2008 was the end of it was when the the whole, you know, that system kind of crashed.
Jarrad Hope
So
Michel Bauwens
Then there is
Jarrad Hope
When
Michel Bauwens
100
Jarrad Hope
We're
Michel Bauwens
Year
Jarrad Hope
Talking.
Michel Bauwens
Cycle,
Jarrad Hope
Sorry
Michel Bauwens
Right?
Jarrad Hope
To interrupt you there, but like when we're talking about these cycles, are you talking about it in like, a sort of Spengler Toynbee Burnham kind
Michel Bauwens
Yeah,
Jarrad Hope
Of sense?
Michel Bauwens
But they have long. I'll come to it. They have long cycles.
Jarrad Hope
Okay?
Michel Bauwens
So I'm starting
Jarrad Hope
Okay.
Michel Bauwens
With
Jarrad Hope
Sorry.
Michel Bauwens
The small
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Ones and I
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Get to the longer ones. So
Jarrad Hope
Okay.
Michel Bauwens
The, you know, the shortest is on average 50 years. But you know, when you say 50, it can be 60 or 40
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
Or, but
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
You know,
Jarrad Hope
Some
Michel Bauwens
And it's like
Jarrad Hope
Standard
Michel Bauwens
A,
Jarrad Hope
Deviation.
Michel Bauwens
Like it's
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
A political economy system. So and you can, you know, we had two phases before the peak, the welfare state and then after the peak, the neoliberal system and
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Then that crash in 2008. So so there we are in the chaotic transition of the political economy cycle and seeking a new combination of energy and, you know, work organization and all of that. But then there is the hundred year cycle, which is described in the fourth generation book, right where you have. First generation after the crisis. Rebuild society. 25 years. One generation. The second generation 68. Starts revolting against the system already. The third phase is when they're both on the same level of strength. So the old and the new are like like in the 90s. And then the fourth, the fourth generation cycle is when you enter chaos. And so that's a civic cycle. It pertains to civic institutions like the trust in democracy. We can
Michel Bauwens
Clearly see, you know, it's largely gone.
Jarrad Hope
It's
Michel Bauwens
People
Jarrad Hope
Very eroded.
Michel Bauwens
Don't trust the press, don't trust the media. That's not an economic issue. That's a civic issue. Like how do we organize ourselves politically? Of course they're related.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
But and
Jarrad Hope
And
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
What
Michel Bauwens
It
Jarrad Hope
Shreds
Michel Bauwens
Also
Jarrad Hope
Remain
Michel Bauwens
Seems.
Jarrad Hope
Of that generative AI is going to completely ruin
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
As well,
Michel Bauwens
You can.
Jarrad Hope
Right?
Michel Bauwens
Yes. So then
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
You have, you know, you can see that the war cycle and the hegemony cycle are also hundred years are related to that second cycle. And what happens is every hundred years there's a big war. Think Napoleon, World War one, World War two, and now you can feel it. We're going back to
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
A very unstable period with Ukraine, Gaza. And this is just, you know, in the last two years and who knows, you know, Iran could get involved. And the Houthis and, you know, it's and China
Jarrad Hope
Could
Michel Bauwens
And Taiwan,
Jarrad Hope
Escalate.
Michel Bauwens
I mean, it's it's not you know, it's it's getting very unstable. Right. And
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So a harmonic means like a change of hegemony, right?
Jarrad Hope
Okay.
Michel Bauwens
The Portuguese, the Dutch, the British, they had actually two cycles and the American cycle. And I think it's very likely that the American hegemony is, you know, is is going down, which is very dangerous because, you know. It's like a wounded tiger, you know, if you're.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
That's when you're
Jarrad Hope
Thrashing
Michel Bauwens
Most dangerous.
Jarrad Hope
In its last throes.
Michel Bauwens
Right?
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Right. So then the so. So now Toynbee and Spengler, they are about long cycles and
Michel Bauwens
It's 1000 year and 500 years. So basically you could you could have this kind of idea that. You know, so you have chaos. Out of that comes a civilization eventually
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Creates cities, and they're decentralized, right? Eventually they start fighting to each other and creating
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Alliances against each other, and eventually they exhausted themselves. So that's what happened to Greece. I think around the fourth century BC.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And that's what happened to Italy in the 14th century, right? So when you reach that 500 year stage of a civilization, the second phase is a centralizing phase of civilization. Now, in Europe, because England was always destroying the would be empires. We have a very special system, which is a nation state. So we never got a true empire. But nation states are also centralizing, you know, agents, right. They centralize on a smaller area, but then they unite in an international system. And which was clearly dominated by the US since, you know, the 1940s. So I would say we are also at the end of A1000 year cycle of Western civilization, because that started more or less in line 98 with the German Holy Roman Empire, which restored a kind of integrative dynamic because between 500 and 1000 it's chaos. It's a dark age. So it's only when the Holy Roman Empire establishes itself that you get, you know, like the the growth of the High Middle Ages. And so that 500 period collapses in the, in the in 1500.
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
You know, the I mean, it's it's a longer process, but that basically creates the conditions for the nation state system, which again, you know, has different iterations. And I think that is ending now. Right? So
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
That's 501,000 years. And then the 5000 year is the idea that civilization was an agrarian, a rural urban relationship. And you know, which you can also then go into complications. But let's put it let's stay simple that we now have this new layer, the trans local layer of self-organized trans local communities. Right. And then
Michel Bauwens
If you don't mind, I can historicize that a little bit. So
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
I think 93 is a key date because we democratize the digital. Before
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
93. It's used by companies, big governments, but citizens have no access to it. So in 93 is like the explosion after the web and the browser. Right?
Michel Bauwens
Then open source, and I'm not sure what day to put an open source, but open source. Why is this important is the first time we can coordinate human labor at a global scale. Outside of corporations and states. So, you know, small groups of on average five people. Can create a coalition of 25,000 workers with 500 companies involved and create Linux.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
And
Michel Bauwens
So.
Jarrad Hope
Run
Michel Bauwens
But.
Jarrad Hope
On billions of devices as the backbone of
Michel Bauwens
Exactly.
Jarrad Hope
Basically
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
The
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Internet,
Michel Bauwens
And and
Jarrad Hope
You know.
Michel Bauwens
The market estate can cannot even do that on their own. So without
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
The open source commons, no state or or company is actually able to do it by themselves. And okay, then crypto comes in, which is a second layer, because I think the problem with open source was that we couldn't fund the core of the commons.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
So the
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
People who interfacing with the market, you know, could get money for certification, education, improving adaptation. But the people working for the core had to be subsidized by big multinationals. And so the problem of open source is it's under heavy influence of big companies that, you know, that are very influential in the core of these open source developments. And so crypto is interesting because it allows for the financialization, for the financing of that open source work in the core. And so now you see Ethereum, you know, funding public goods. So taxing itself, as it were, right. Optimism. You pay double the cost of maintaining and growing that that I don't know how you call it like a chain or whatever you want to call it.
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
And, and they give it to Gitcoin and Gitcoin then funds the commons of Ethereum.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Right. So this is an extraordinarily significant because we have. So the capacity now from within the network. To finance your own comments. Now, I think there's still, you know, a big problem and which I will explain right now, which is the relationship. So I still think crypto is, is incomplete because it doesn't deal with real production. Right.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So when you look at declining civilizations, let me give you very quickly the end of Rome. So Rome is a slave based system, right? You conquer, you get slaves and booty and gold, and then you pay the soldiers with that booty. When
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
You can no longer conquer. Now you have to start paying your soldiers. So you have to start taxing, right? Then the landlords have to pay the tax. But as the system declines, you know, the the people leave the cities and look for to go back to the countryside to be closer to food production. And they start, you know, putting pressure on the landlords to pay them, you know, to lower the rents. So then the Roman state says we're going to make them colony, force them to stay on the land so that the landlords can pay their taxes. So that's the beginning of feudalism already within the
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
As a root within the Roman Empire, right? So what I'm saying is and so what you also have to understand is that at the end of the Roman Empire, there was no more money. Like, literally
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
The monetary system collapsed. So you go back to food, you know. So I'm a farmer, you're the landlord. I give you, you know, half of my food production. And so you can pay soldiers that will protect me. That's
Jarrad Hope
Right?
Michel Bauwens
Like the social contract
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Feudalism. And so what I'm so my critique of crypto is that if you just think that you can do like an exodus out of the old system and then do an arbitrage between nation states, you know, and, oh, if if Portugal collapses, we go to Greece. If Greece collapses, we go to the Canary Islands. You know,
Jarrad Hope
Right?
Michel Bauwens
At some point it will bite you in the ass because
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Some
Jarrad Hope
You're
Michel Bauwens
People
Jarrad Hope
Not
Michel Bauwens
Will say,
Jarrad Hope
If you're not producing
Michel Bauwens
We
Jarrad Hope
Anything on
Michel Bauwens
Don't
Jarrad Hope
Your own.
Michel Bauwens
Want these parasites, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
We don't want these parasites. We,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
And so I think crypto should get involved. In physical production, in reorganizing physical production and creating what I call mutual coordination economics with your own supply chains. Okay, this is not a topic I can go into it, but okay, I feel I've I
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
Want
Jarrad Hope
Have
Michel Bauwens
You to
Jarrad Hope
So many
Michel Bauwens
React
Jarrad Hope
Questions.
Michel Bauwens
To this.
Jarrad Hope
And there's there's a bunch of things that I want to unpack. This is great stuff, I guess. Are you familiar with familiar with Bertrand de Jouvenel, who did the book on power?
Michel Bauwens
Yeah, yeah, I
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Read the I read it. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
I was. Yeah. Because I guess, like, you know, one of my questions is and it certainly comes up, you know, after the fall of Rome in his examples. You know, basically how things start to recentralize I don't know if
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
You have any ideas around, like why that has or if you agree with,
Michel Bauwens
Yes.
Jarrad Hope
You know, some
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Of his ideas
Michel Bauwens
Okay,
Jarrad Hope
Or.
Michel Bauwens
So let let me explain, Spangler, because he sheds a light on this. So,
Michel Bauwens
A civilization. Is a mixture. At first
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
You have an invader and a local population, and that's
Michel Bauwens
Why you have to go beyond custom, because both have their own customs and are there together. They have to reinvent society in order to live together. Right. And so essentially you have a warrior class, which is the invading class, and a priestly class which tries to civilize the warriors because, you know, you need almost psychopaths to go to war. But then, of course, when they come home, they do the same and they rape the women. And so you in order to have a civilization, you need both. You need the warriors and the priests, and the priests are there to soften the, you know, the,
Jarrad Hope
All right.
Michel Bauwens
The
Jarrad Hope
Like a regulating
Michel Bauwens
System
Jarrad Hope
Function.
Michel Bauwens
Of the
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
Warriors. Right? So
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Eventually, you know, they're successful, they create a surplus and you get cities. So
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
In cities create a third class, which is the the merchant class and the guilds and stuff. Right. So this is where you get the juvenile because what he noticed is, is that and this is not like Marx who only sees two, you know, dialectics and juvenile sees Trialectics. Right. He sees
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Bottom, middle and top. And so what
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Juvenile says is that the top will mobilize the bottom against the middle. Right? So
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
The the cities and the kings will ally against the aristocracy. And if that inevitably will actually abolish the caste system eventually. And it happens in
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Every civilization, not just in the West, you, Byzantium, China, you know, Spain really documents that this is a very universal pattern. Right? So then in the cities. As they grow bigger and bigger, you create a fourth class, he says, which is a working class, and they want democracy. And they'll get democracy. But democracy is corrupted by money, and eventually that will collapse as well. And then you get what you call caesarism.
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And I think there's very good grounds to say that we are now entering a serious period. You
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Know, figures like Trump.
Jarrad Hope
I
Jarrad Hope
Was
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Going to say
Michel Bauwens
People.
Jarrad Hope
That. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah. So, you know, if you talk to people who like Trump, it's not that they like everything he is or does, but they say, we need a crazy guy like that just to, you know, be
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
A bull in a China shop, because
Jarrad Hope
Reset
Michel Bauwens
Otherwise nothing
Jarrad Hope
This.
Michel Bauwens
Is
Jarrad Hope
Exactly.
Michel Bauwens
Going to change for us, right? And because the system is so stuck. You know, so you get these figures coming out and they do the arbitrage between the people.
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Right? They. So what is Caesar can do is say, well, I'll give this to the working class and I'll give this to the capitalists, and I'll give this to the, to the, to the church. And because they, they are in a, in a how do you say this in English? Like a bad situation where nobody can win, right. The
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Reds and the Blues in the US
Jarrad Hope
Stalemate.
Michel Bauwens
Is
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
They can't win. It's a stalemate. So then you can have a figure coming out who can, who can decide who to favor. And if this side comes too strong, he'll support for a while. The other side. Right. So that's what a Caesar usually does. There's somebody who allies with the poor. You know and then changes the system and gives enough to the poor so that they're happy with him.
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
You know Peron, Napoleon. They are figures like that. And I think Trump
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Is probably has the potential to be a figure like that.
Jarrad Hope
Gotcha. Yeah, I think thanks for that. I guess, like so one of the things that, you know, we talked about crypto and how this improves the open source dynamics, you know, and, and building these sort of public goods. But like in the light of this, I've kind of been a little bit concerned in the way that I've been viewing you know, blockchain networks because I, I'm starting to view them more like social orders and the consensus
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Algorithm much more like a a form of popular sovereignty in a way. And I can imagine this order being the backbone or basis for a you know, cyber state, virtual state, temporary autonomous zone, network
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
State, whatever you want to call it. And so then, like when we start talking about you know, funding of these public goods, it's almost like a developmental state in that it is investing heavily in infrastructure. But that patronage is also kind of a centralizing force because it creates this strong dependency. So unless, you know, we build out token economics and mechanisms for these various public goods to be self-sustaining. I could see, you know maybe in, I don't know which cycle it would be 50 or 100 years time that, you know,
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
A crypto SA comes up and
Michel Bauwens
I,
Jarrad Hope
Aligns
Michel Bauwens
You know, I
Jarrad Hope
All
Michel Bauwens
Think
Jarrad Hope
Of these things.
Michel Bauwens
You should. You should, you should actually see that way in a way. Right. Because
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
We can't be fully utopian. So because nature, you know, is cyclic and human culture is cyclic. And so here's my view. So any competition for scarce resources leads to oligarchy.
Jarrad Hope
New.
Michel Bauwens
Why? Because it's a it's a game and every iteration of the game, some is more lucky or more clever than you. So they already have more resources for the second game and then the third game. And so whether it's land or money, you, you see it, you know, that is always this tendency towards oligarchy.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Unless unless you either react to it violently. So that's actually, you know, few people know that. But Greek democracy was a revolution against the landed aristocracy, which was, you know, lending out money at high interest. And that was that's what created Greek democracy as a revolt against, you know, the self and self enslaving by the landlords. And then the way to maintain it is by having anti oligarchic measures. Right. And so
Michel Bauwens
Again, I'm happy to see what like what I think quadratic funding and quadratic voting. You know I'm not very technical. And you know I'm not sure exactly how they work. But I think you know they seem to me, to me to be anti oligarchic efforts right to, to balance contribution with, with the, let's say the investor tokens and give more power to people who contribute to the network itself. So I think to the degree that we can find these like balancing measures, we can maintain, you know, the systems longer will it be forever? I don't know, I don't think so. I don't expect it because in the past we haven't been able to do it either. You know, look at like medieval cities, you know, they were self-organized.
Michel Bauwens
Run by the guilds. And only later, you know, did the merchant guilds dominate. And then other the merchant guilds came, came these families that started dominating the whole city, you know, like the Medici. And. Right. It took a while, but there's a long period where, you know, maybe 150 years, half a 300 year cycle where the, you know, you have. We had very democratic run cities. 98% of the people in the Middle Ages were in the cities, were members of associations, fraternities, you know, with their own judiciary and everything. So, you know, I hope you can see that, you know, there's there's some parallels there with the way the crypto
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
World is developing. Right? Except that they're
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Not territorial
Jarrad Hope
I mean, Dao
Michel Bauwens
Cities.
Jarrad Hope
Is a kind
Michel Bauwens
They're
Jarrad Hope
Of like
Michel Bauwens
Like.
Jarrad Hope
Guilds, you know?
Michel Bauwens
Yeah. And you
Michel Bauwens
Actually have now, you know, they call themselves guilds like
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
The Protocol Guild and stuff. So, so this kind of tendency towards distribution and decentralization, which you see in crypto is kind of creating similar phenomena. Then, you know, when we were creating this decentralized city systems. But again, you know, we'll have to see whether we can go out of the cycle or not. To some degree, I think this is the real the real challenge, actually. Okay. And here I have to be optimistic. So I'll give you a big scheme I like scheme, so here's another one. So nature created or God if you like, you know, created an immature biosphere.
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Right. And then you have something called the Great Oxygenation Event, which was poisonous, but then actually created. A mature biosphere eventually. So, you know, based on on oxygen and what, you know, what some people call Gaia, but it's scientific now. It's called Earth System science, which is, you know, it's actually a system that that tries to maintain itself. It's mysterious. We, you know, but they have identified many feedback systems that recreate order when there is chaos and disorder. Right. So then then we come. So nature creates sculpture right through humanity creates a new layer. So you have the geosphere, the biosphere of life and then the new sphere of human culture. And what we create is an immature technosphere, right? Which is eating the biosphere and eating the geosphere in an unsustainable way. So the
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Big challenge for me is. Can we move from an immature technosphere to a mature technosphere? Right. And I think this is the big challenge. This is the big transition. And if we succeed in that, then maybe we can live for thousands of years. In balance with with the planet. I think that's the great hope. Right. And so where does crypto come in? I think crypto creates a planetary scale, mutual coordination economy, but I
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Call it cosmological because why do we need to be local? Because two thirds of the expenditure of matter and energy. Is actually transporting now, and that's way too much. Like, you know there's very good better in in Patagonia. But they're getting bankrupt by the New Zealand better. Right
Jarrad Hope
Right?
Michel Bauwens
This that's there's no need
Jarrad Hope
Absurd.
Michel Bauwens
For that. Like
Jarrad Hope
Yeah, yeah.
Michel Bauwens
That's absurd. Right. Or you think about
Jarrad Hope
For.
Michel Bauwens
Shrimp. You know they they're fished and use in New England. They sent to China and then they come back.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Same thing here. You know, the apples go to China and then they come back. So there is a lot enormous waste because we are fixated on money. And money doesn't give us the right signals about thermodynamic realities. Right. And
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
So there's a lot of things in, in crypto that actually that are potential solution to this. So the first thing is the actual ability to coordinate production on a global scale. So we relocalize we mutualize certain things because it's cheap to do certain things collectively. But then we have the layer of the noosphere, which is cosmic, right? What is heavy is local, and what is light is global. And so I always say to the localist that localism is sublinear.
Jarrad Hope
What?
Michel Bauwens
You lose efficiency if you only local.
Michel Bauwens
But cosmological is superlinear. We gain efficiency by combining the local with the cosmic. Right. So re localized production but but global cooperation. And so you ask me how long you know the crisis can can last. So one of the answers is this it used to take four generations. I
Michel Bauwens
Don't think we have four generations. So our hope is the acceleration of technology, and that's where
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Ai comes in. You know, for me, not as some mystical intelligence is going to take over, but
Jarrad Hope
It.
Michel Bauwens
As something that is going to be like a tool. That is going to tell us the limits of what we can spend for humanity, right? So I see a first layer of stigmergic coordination. So because of open source and crypto, we can see the whole ecosystem. So we move from a situation where you have competing states and markets
Jarrad Hope
See.
Michel Bauwens
Which can only see their own thing. Am I making more profit? Am I getting enough taxes? They never see the impact, the externalities. Now we have a universal ledger, the blockchain.
Michel Bauwens
Where you know. And so this is a fourth layer. You have market stage nonprofits. We creating an integrative meta layer of coordination of those three sectors, plus all the three contributors that can also join a collaborative ecosystem. And it's cosmological.
Jarrad Hope
Well.
Michel Bauwens
It works both for the local and for the for the universal level. So I think we need it. So we need planetary without having a world government. And I think
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
That's where network
Jarrad Hope
So?
Michel Bauwens
Commons based networks are that are are the the equivalent of a world government based on states.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting. I've come to some similar conclusions and parallels, but from a slightly different angle. So and more from a technical way and like how you can retain these sort of utilities and properties of, you know, what we love about you know, Bitcoin and Ethereum. And, you know, one example in terms of the US's, you know, potential decline you know, in its position as being, you know, effectively the de facto peace keeper for the planet. And consequently, the US dollar being essentially the world reserve currency. Right. But through its overuse of economic sanctions, you're finding BRICs countries are now starting to create alternate swap lines to circumvent the US dollar effectively.
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
And within that you know, there's a call for the notion of political neutrality in a world reserve currency. Like this would be a highly
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Desired
Michel Bauwens
Which
Jarrad Hope
Property,
Michel Bauwens
Which the
Jarrad Hope
Right?
Michel Bauwens
West unfortunately is, is you know that I mean, that makes me angry that, you know, when
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
They freeze Russian assets, right? You're telling
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
The world you cannot trust the Western financial system
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
When you
Jarrad Hope
Exactly.
Michel Bauwens
Are bombing, you know, the Nord Stream, you're telling the world, oh, it's okay to to destroy physical infrastructure.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
I mean,
Michel Bauwens
We, the West, have set very bad precedents, you
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
Know, which I think comes from the panic of the US of losing its hegemony. And, you know, it's it's willing to do everything to keep it. But it's it's in many ways counterproductive.
Jarrad Hope
I agree. And so like, with this idea in mind and I was also reading, I think it's called is the international legal Order unraveling, which is done by, I want to say, the American Law Institute. I could be wrong on the publisher on that. And
Michel Bauwens
I'm
Jarrad Hope
The title,
Michel Bauwens
Going to take
Jarrad Hope
But,
Michel Bauwens
A note of that because. Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
You know, it's it is a set of American lawyers who work in international law. And they start, you know, looking at all the different aspects of you know, how world order has changed over, you know, certainly post
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
World War Two. But like, you know, what, the sort of vertical and horizontal rules and and how they've been treated and so like, if you view blockchain that is as politically neutral as possible. And in my view, you know, this includes you know, private network level privacy as well as private transactions are almost necessary to maintain that. If you have that in place, then it actually becomes like a great order for, you know, this global coordination. And then the stakeholders are the participants in the consensus algorithm can be state and
Michel Bauwens
One.
Jarrad Hope
Global non-state actors yet they retain their sovereignty because they can either, you know, withdraw from their usage
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Of that order or fork it. Right.
Michel Bauwens
So that's a very good example of, you know, fourth sector, right. Where you you are
Jarrad Hope
Okay.
Michel Bauwens
Creating this meta integration. And I think that's the most realistic because, you know, when you talk about network states and network nations, I mean, definitely there is something going on. I you know, I'm not denying that, that people are self-organizing and wanting to do this and, you know, assembling money and that, you know, like at this stage, you know, which is like the Network City stage, you can imagine some countries like Morocco or Tunisia and saying, oh, why don't you come here? You know, and that attracts
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Money and knowledge. I mean, that I think can certainly happen. But, you know, given
Jarrad Hope
That's
Michel Bauwens
The
Jarrad Hope
A digital
Michel Bauwens
Scale
Jarrad Hope
Nomad
Michel Bauwens
Of China,
Jarrad Hope
Version of it. Almost. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Right,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Given the scale of China and Russia, I think we shouldn't rush into like utopianism about it. You know, the
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
So it's going to be like a play of mutual adaptation for, for a certain time where. And so I think this strategy is the best one where, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
And so the
Jarrad Hope
Thank
Michel Bauwens
Difference
Jarrad Hope
You.
Michel Bauwens
Is the following. So
Michel Bauwens
Market societies in the West are competing with state centric societies, you know, in the East Eurasian side and then the BRICs with them, they, you know, they they want to. So the state is becoming stronger in Russia and China, not weaker.
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
Right? So
Jarrad Hope
Of
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Course.
Michel Bauwens
Have to be careful to be realistic about what is happening in the world.
Jarrad Hope
So this
Jarrad Hope
Is what I wanted to get back to around this
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
East versus west versus digital. Right. So like the the main issue that I see with, with that trichotomy is that the digital is, is basically dependent on the East and West's physical infrastructure. Right.
Michel Bauwens
Yes.
Jarrad Hope
And so that's a huge dependency. So again, this is why I think, you know, blinding the network level traffic between peers may be a way that you can Reach netizens in countries that may
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Not be able to access
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
It under
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Normal
Michel Bauwens
Then so
Jarrad Hope
Conditions.
Michel Bauwens
Then, as you know, as a relatively autonomous actor, you know, these
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Proto network nations,
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
I like the word coordination that was invented by, you know, Primavera De Filippi
Jarrad Hope
The.
Michel Bauwens
And her crew. I think
Jarrad Hope
I'm.
Michel Bauwens
That's
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
A really
Jarrad Hope
I'm familiar
Michel Bauwens
Nice
Jarrad Hope
With
Michel Bauwens
Word
Jarrad Hope
Her.
Michel Bauwens
Coordination
Jarrad Hope
Yeah, it's a great.
Michel Bauwens
Because it leaves it open to what exactly it's going to be. You know, how you know, but they have a vested interest to protect themselves, right? And so this, I think is inevitable, right? You, you as as a kind of. So I'm not sure if this is a good analogy, but I, I like it. So. Okay. So 5000 years ago, we create writing
Michel Bauwens
That creates a writing class. And they create a world to their image through markets and states. You know, we can do their
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Accounting and their writing and okay. Then today we have a new language coding and
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
A coding class. Right. Which has access to its computers. So that's their means of production, but they don't have access to the means of valuation. The networks
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
That would because they are still controlled by corporations and states. And so, naturally, if they want to create a world to their image, they're, they're they're pushed to create, you know, their own infrastructures and to do arbitrage and to protect themselves. And I think this is where crypto, you know, is, is very important to, you know, to create all these things because of course. You know, I don't know what you think about this, but I think that in the West, we're moving pretty fast to a Chinese situation in the sense of,
Jarrad Hope
Oh,
Michel Bauwens
You know,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
Surveillance
Jarrad Hope
100%.
Michel Bauwens
Control. And, you know, I actually tend to believe that the. So, you know, there's this woman, what's her name, Catherine Austin Fitts, and she says, okay, today, the war. So, you know, so you have a declining system, it loses legitimacy. So you have a fragmentation because the the integrating narrative loses legitimacy. Right? So you have
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Fragmentation. Fragmentation creates polarization because if you're
Michel Bauwens
Alone you're looking like where can I find the most support. Right. So this creates the pagans against the Christians, the Reformation against the Catholic Church. And I think today
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
The culture war, and I think
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
The culture war today is two factions in the ruling class. And this is where the juvenile comes in. You know, it's always
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
About alliances, jurisdictional alliances. So these factions are trying to get more strength by looking who can support us in the people. Right. And, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
The middle class, upper middle class, working class, rural. So they're trying to strengthen their, their coalitions. And so you have one coalition which wants to sacrifice the nation to the empire.
Michel Bauwens
You know, the globalists, as
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
The right wing would say. And I think that's real. And, you know, like the
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
Left,
Jarrad Hope
Think
Michel Bauwens
Their
Jarrad Hope
It's an accurate
Michel Bauwens
Image
Jarrad Hope
Assessment.
Michel Bauwens
Is.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Is the whiff one day. Their ideal is a world run by multi-stakeholder coalitions in in
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Domain's global domains, but dominated by financial capital. You know the
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Blackrocks of our world. And
Jarrad Hope
A
Michel Bauwens
Then
Jarrad Hope
Managed
Michel Bauwens
The
Jarrad Hope
Democracy,
Michel Bauwens
Other side.
Jarrad Hope
You know.
Michel Bauwens
Yes. You know, the other side is sacrificing the empire to the nation. So these
Michel Bauwens
Are this is Trump, you know, allied
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
To local business people, to the rural, to those who want to bring back industry and things to America, but they don't think they can continue to fund 800 bases abroad.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
And
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Think
Michel Bauwens
Know,
Jarrad Hope
Like
Michel Bauwens
And
Jarrad Hope
The.
Michel Bauwens
And
Jarrad Hope
Sorry.
Michel Bauwens
I, you know, I don't
Jarrad Hope
Go.
Michel Bauwens
Want to choose either side. I think either, you know, they both have strengths and weaknesses.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So I think that the commoners, this is how I think about it, is that the commoners or the people are self-creating this productive ecosystems that are partially translocal. You know, we should first of all strengthen our own power.
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
And then look at who's supporting our agenda. That's the way I think about it. So to so to not necessarily to choose sides, although I want to choose the side that gives me the maximum amount of freedom of speech and pluralism, you know, and
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
I'm not sure what side is the best for that. I actually, you know, increasingly tend to believe that, that the side is in power. Now, he's doing the worst in terms of suppressing
Michel Bauwens
Free speech.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. I think, like you know, some of the populist movements we're seeing or, you know, maybe nationalist movements, this sort of sacrificing the empire for, for the nation. I think they have a lot of really important points for understanding or criticizing the current status of, of our empire, right? Or of our civilization. But. At least how I see it. It's almost this kind of this return to to the single nation with, you know, a standard territory
Michel Bauwens
I
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
Think
Jarrad Hope
Don't
Michel Bauwens
That's
Jarrad Hope
Think is
Michel Bauwens
Ultimately
Jarrad Hope
Actually viable
Michel Bauwens
Also
Jarrad Hope
Against.
Michel Bauwens
Reactionary, right? Yes.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah, yeah, it's a very reaction,
Michel Bauwens
It's
Jarrad Hope
But
Michel Bauwens
Not a future.
Jarrad Hope
It's
Michel Bauwens
It's
Jarrad Hope
Also
Michel Bauwens
Not
Jarrad Hope
Not
Michel Bauwens
A future.
Jarrad Hope
Known.
Michel Bauwens
It's a way to react. Yeah, I agree
Jarrad Hope
So,
Michel Bauwens
With that.
Jarrad Hope
So I think, you know, for that to be viable, there almost needs to be like some kind of transnational policy network between those nations and to basically
Michel Bauwens
All right.
Jarrad Hope
Create a counterbalance to a globalist. So the point being is that the stage is at the global level, you know, for this iteration. And we'll probably, you know, depending on the timeline, it'll probably dictate how the world governs itself. Right? And I
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Don't know, maybe we'll get some kind of you know. Quasi utopian Star Trek military, you know, government controlling the world or I don't know what's going to look like.
Michel Bauwens
Right? Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
But
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
That's
Jarrad Hope
Guess
Michel Bauwens
What
Jarrad Hope
That
Michel Bauwens
Exciting.
Jarrad Hope
Kind of.
Michel Bauwens
And of course, you know, you know what they say in Chinese. May you live in interesting times, which apparently is a curse.
Jarrad Hope
We certainly
Michel Bauwens
And
Jarrad Hope
Do. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So, you know, we're gonna have a lot of swings. I think we have to expect wild swings in politics. You know, where, you know, if you look, for example, at Republicans in the US and what they want to do if they win power, some of it is frightening. You know, like closing the DEA, closing the I, I can live with that personally, but closing the DEA, maybe,
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
You know. So, you know, kicking out 50,000 people you know, on the first day comes in office. You know, I'm not saying I necessarily against it, but it's, you know, these are, like, destabilizing. If they do
Jarrad Hope
There.
Michel Bauwens
It, it's going to be very destabilizing. It's going to create massive resistance. You know, look at what's happening in Argentina. And, you know, with serious dangers of civil war in some countries, and
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
Especially
Jarrad Hope
Was about to
Michel Bauwens
I
Jarrad Hope
Ask
Michel Bauwens
Think
Jarrad Hope
You
Michel Bauwens
The
Jarrad Hope
If
Michel Bauwens
Us
Jarrad Hope
You think a
Michel Bauwens
Is
Jarrad Hope
Civil war would be on
Michel Bauwens
Well,
Jarrad Hope
The
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Table.
Michel Bauwens
Know, I'm not predicting it's going to happen, but I certainly think that the danger is there. And there are
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Some of these scientific you know institutes. I've forgot the name. There's one in Scandinavia. And, you know, they're based on what happened in Bosnia and Yugoslavia. And so they have quite objective criteria. And they say, like us is 70%.
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Right. Which is, you know,
Jarrad Hope
It's quite.
Michel Bauwens
It's not 100%, but it's or it's 70% of all
Jarrad Hope
Spicy
Michel Bauwens
The criteria
Jarrad Hope
Meatball.
Michel Bauwens
Which conditioned the eventual outbreak. And this is where, you know, Europe now is not in a good shape. I think
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
It's being vassalized by by the US and
Jarrad Hope
Yes.
Michel Bauwens
Doing things that are counter to its own interests,
Jarrad Hope
Interests.
Michel Bauwens
Which, by the way, is also typical for the end of an empire. So as you lose control of the of the for abroad, you, you come back to your near abroad. Right? And then you have to hyper
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Exploit. Your your near allies. In order to to to resist. So European is a bad shape. But Europe has a interconnected network of 400 cities with
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Long history were still integrated in their territorial regions. And that are very connected to each other. So we kind of primed for distributed. So, you know, if the, if the EU or the nation states collapse, we have this kind of underlying. And you, you know, you see the map of the Holy Roman Empire, it's, you know, it's very colored. It has like, you know, 80 different regions in Germany. And yet they all chose an emperor in that last for 1000 years. So that was like a, you know, a very stable, relatively distributed system. The US
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Has 40 cities which are not well connected except by plane. So the US is primed for regional breakup.
Jarrad Hope
Interesting.
Michel Bauwens
You know? And so that's maybe a good side of Europe is that we have all these, you know, all these historical cities where, you know, convivially built, architecturally built you know, they're very pleasant, you know, to live in.
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
I try to spend as much time
Michel Bauwens
I'm
Jarrad Hope
In Europe
Michel Bauwens
European.
Jarrad Hope
As I as I
Michel Bauwens
I'm
Jarrad Hope
Can.
Michel Bauwens
Still a bit
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
I'm still a bit patriotic. You know, I think it's still you know, we have things that that are likable.
Jarrad Hope
No no, no. I guess, like, you know, so going back to the sort of like, seed forms, you know, we've talked about, you know you know, the crypto as being a potential seed former and an evolution of open source technologies and, you know, creating these public goods. Is there any other seed forms that you identify at the moment?
Michel Bauwens
Well.
Jarrad Hope
And
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
I guess
Michel Bauwens
The two
Jarrad Hope
The.
Michel Bauwens
For me are peer
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
To peer and the Commons. And they
Jarrad Hope
Sure.
Michel Bauwens
Reiterate everywhere like, you know,
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
So that's
Jarrad Hope
See.
Michel Bauwens
Basically what my week is about. You know, I have 25,000 articles. Per domain business, spirituality and you will see that everywhere the same thing is happening. These
Jarrad Hope
Wow.
Michel Bauwens
Seed forms are emerging, but those are like the two common points.
Michel Bauwens
So.
Jarrad Hope
I see,
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
That's
Jarrad Hope
See.
Michel Bauwens
Why I say peer to peer networks based on commons. Right.
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Gotcha.
Michel Bauwens
You need a you need a common infrastructure for collective action. If you have only individual then nobody
Michel Bauwens
Wants to invest in the things that we all need to do together to be stronger together. So that's why
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
You need commons, right? And that's why we needed states in geography. Because otherwise, you know privately you why would I buy you know, invest in a road.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
You know that I'm using only
Jarrad Hope
The
Michel Bauwens
Once
Jarrad Hope
Private
Michel Bauwens
A month.
Jarrad Hope
Market tends to, you know,
Michel Bauwens
Right. So the collective
Michel Bauwens
Action
Jarrad Hope
Look
Michel Bauwens
Problem.
Jarrad Hope
At short tum gains,
Michel Bauwens
Right,
Jarrad Hope
You know.
Michel Bauwens
Which was solved by the state as a collective actor.
Jarrad Hope
Brandt. Oh. That's
Michel Bauwens
And,
Jarrad Hope
Interesting. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Know, and so at the network level, we also need to solve the collective action problem.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And I think that's the commons and not the state.
Jarrad Hope
Now I
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Can
Michel Bauwens
Know,
Jarrad Hope
See that.
Michel Bauwens
We have para states, right? So you look at, at open source communities, they do have these for benefit associations like the Wikimedia
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Foundation and the Drupal Association. And, you know, which acts as a collective entity, you know, to broker agreements between multiple stakeholders, right.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And crypto for, you know, for some reason, is trying to avoid human deliberation and go, you know, to a kind of incentive based consensus. And, you know, I still not sure if that's going to work fully, but I think where it makes sense is that, you know, it's the evolution of trust, right? So you have. Big little sister. Little brother. Tribal.
Michel Bauwens
You can always go to some family member. Everybody is your aunt and your uncle, and everybody loves you. And you know, you go, you solve problems through talking together and maybe the elders, you know, you have to go in front of the elders. Then we scaled up to empires, right?
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
So then you get big Father, like, why are we working together over long distance? Because we fear the same God and the punishments by the priests. Right.
Jarrad Hope
Yes.
Michel Bauwens
Then we move to the nation state, big brother, because we are all equal citizens and the state is our big brother. I
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Think, somewhat controversially, we now in Big Brother, which is, you know, so because we are feminizing and 70% of universities are led by women and and so it's, it's, you know, it's for your safety. Right. We're going to protect you. So
Jarrad Hope
Now.
Michel Bauwens
It's like a benevolent, benevolent surveillance.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
And, you know,
Jarrad Hope
It's
Michel Bauwens
That's
Jarrad Hope
Almost
Michel Bauwens
What
Jarrad Hope
Like
Michel Bauwens
Wokeism
Jarrad Hope
There's now
Michel Bauwens
Is
Jarrad Hope
A maternalism.
Michel Bauwens
Essentially. Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
You know, and and this is like a gender difference, you know, like, this has been studied like 70, 70% of the men would say, we we want truth.
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
And 7,070% of the of the women would say, we want safety. We want to protect the, you know, the weak.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So there's, you know, there's outliers in both groups, but like, there's this general thing of value differentiation, right. And so that's why we now have censorship in the name of the good. Right. Like
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
You can't critique minorities. And so, so but it's, it's very, you know, very repressive I think like, you know, this like
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
All
Jarrad Hope
Like the intentions
Michel Bauwens
The things you can't
Jarrad Hope
Are good,
Michel Bauwens
Say
Jarrad Hope
Right? But
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
The mechanisms
Michel Bauwens
The intention
Jarrad Hope
Are used to
Michel Bauwens
Is
Jarrad Hope
Employ
Michel Bauwens
Good.
Jarrad Hope
It.
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Know, it's the protective intention.
Jarrad Hope
But
Jarrad Hope
The mechanism.
Michel Bauwens
And.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. Is.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah. And
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So I think we need to go back to little brother, little sister, but on a distributed network. Right.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
And,
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
And create smaller communities that can decide autonomously in there. So it's going from tribalism to neo tribalism, not
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Kinship based but affinity based.
Jarrad Hope
Definitely
Michel Bauwens
Right. And if
Jarrad Hope
I.
Michel Bauwens
You think about it integrally, you know, like Ken Wilber stuff, right? You might be familiar with that. So the idea of transcend
Jarrad Hope
A little. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
And include. Right. So we have tribal then we have these empires. We have the
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Axial revolution which creates like communitarian systems like, you know, Judaism and, and Buddhism and Christianity. Then we
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Have the capitalist you know, entrepreneurial layer, modernity,
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Science, technology. Postmodern layer, which is like, you know, we should be critical about our own and like, see through our own determinations and, you know, anyway, and I think we need to kind of like, you know, take things from every system, right, in a new in a new kind of integrative framework, a meta integrative idea. And so, you know, I work with Daniel Schmachtenberg and his team
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
With people like Zachary Stein. I'm, you know, I'm contracted to the Civilization Research Institute. And, you know, we talk about the meta crisis there, right? Which is the idea that. So the poly crisis is we have multiple crises and they're all related. And you can't solve one problem without the others. The meta crisis is a one step further is we are looking to generative common patterns. That are seen in all these crises. And so if we can work on these patterns, then we can solve all the crises at the same time. So
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
I'm not you know, I'm not sure they're going to succeed. But that's the, that's kind of the, the aim. And then what I'm doing, you know, in that project, because that is not my specialty, is confronting these kind of systems theory, cybernetics theory with civilizational history. Right. Because the problem with systems theory is that you have agents in a network. There's no subjectivity. There's no culture, there's no history. And I think for human beings that is actually very important. So, you know,
Michel Bauwens
Like
Jarrad Hope
I've come to the same
Michel Bauwens
Which
Jarrad Hope
Conclusion,
Michel Bauwens
Yeah,
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
We're trying
Jarrad Hope
Realized.
Michel Bauwens
To merge, you know, these two approaches in something that is like a you know, I'm not saying we're going to succeed, but that's, that's what we're trying to do. And then the other
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Thing I might
Jarrad Hope
Like,
Michel Bauwens
Want to say
Jarrad Hope
Just
Michel Bauwens
Just
Jarrad Hope
Just
Michel Bauwens
I'll finish
Jarrad Hope
On that
Michel Bauwens
With this.
Jarrad Hope
Note.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
Okay. Go,
Michel Bauwens
Okay.
Jarrad Hope
Go. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Go ahead. No, no. Go ahead.
Michel Bauwens
I just want to
Michel Bauwens
Say
Jarrad Hope
Just.
Michel Bauwens
I have another project you might want to know about.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
But go
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Ahead.
Jarrad Hope
I mean so on that notion of like, trust I think for me, what I got into crypto when one of the selling points was this notion of like, trustlessness, right? If you're you know, one of the new priests, you can read the code and you understand how everything works. You can trust the mathematics, right? Of course, the average person can't do that. And so, like, they have to rely on social proof or heuristics to, to do that. But,
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
What I actually what that actually was about, I realized later, was the erosion of a high trust society that I was embedded in. Right. And like, that sort
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Of part of the culture was actually what I was looking for was this this high trust society that I used to be part of as a, as a child and in my, in my, you know, in my youth, I guess,
Michel Bauwens
So what
Michel Bauwens
Was your background? Where were you living?
Jarrad Hope
In Australia. Yeah. So.
Michel Bauwens
All
Jarrad Hope
But
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
I've been traveling I've been, you know, digital nomads for probably the past sort of 17 or 18 years
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Now, so. Yeah. Did
Michel Bauwens
Well.
Jarrad Hope
They find any of these before you talk about your, your next project or the other project you're working on? That's interesting. Did they find any metapatterns yet? Or are they still you know, trying
Michel Bauwens
No,
Jarrad Hope
To to
Michel Bauwens
They
Jarrad Hope
Discover
Michel Bauwens
They
Jarrad Hope
Those.
Michel Bauwens
Have some. I, I haven't really studied it that much yet.
Jarrad Hope
Okay.
Michel Bauwens
But you know, like, misaligned regulation,
Michel Bauwens
Social traps. So they, they use this kind of
Jarrad Hope
I see.
Michel Bauwens
Vocabulary,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
But, you know, my own project, which is to read all the macro historians, I can tell
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
You, it's like, so, so much already
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
That I have a hard time getting other stuff, you know?
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
So I'm really so I've read so there's three phases in macro history.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Well, I actually start with Spengler, right. Because he's the first non-eurocentric macro historian. So in the 19th century, everybody believes in progress. And Europe is the highest stage of progress. And so everywhere if everybody copies Europe, then, you know, then we're good, right? And Spengler is the first one, even though it was a conservative to say no, the West is is just one of civilizations. It will also decline eventually. So there was a big shock. And so then you have a whole number of cultural historians Carl Quigley, Arnold Toynbee, and they react and improve and critique Spengler. But within that cultural framework with culture, I mean that humans have agency. That
Michel Bauwens
Values matter, right? So a civilization for Spangler is. Like a very particular orientation to the world that is unique
Michel Bauwens
To that civilization. So it will say things like the Greeks, the body in space. So all
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Their sculpture is all about the body in space. There's no transcendence.
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
In, in the Hellenistic civilization, it's it's all embodied. For the Christians, it's immediately when it starts the
Jarrad Hope
So,
Michel Bauwens
Gothic cathedral infinity.
Michel Bauwens
The you know, for the Byzantium's and the and the Islam's, which he, he actually puts together in some way, even though they're different. It's, you know, it's round, right. It's a protective the protective dome. So
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
So that's how we you know so
Jarrad Hope
Fascinating.
Michel Bauwens
That's cultural. It's so every
Michel Bauwens
Civilization has it calls it a prime symbol.
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Then you have spiritualists reactions and that's Aurobindo. The yada Sadhan Sarkar in India. So these are people who say no culture is actually also spiritual. And so they try to
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Kind of like synthesize evolution and modernity with, with with their traditions and their. Okay, so in the 70s, then you have a second layer, which is world system analysis, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
And these are basically the neo-Marxist neo materialist. So Wallerstein and and they look at geopolitics and, you know, productive systems and which, you know, is also very interesting. You know, I just see it as a, as a perspective. And then the last one which is still going on is called Big History, which is the same as what what Daniel is doing, which is looking at the patterns of change behind the world of matter, life and human history. Right. So for example
Jarrad Hope
All right.
Michel Bauwens
Emergence. Bifurcation. You find them in nature. You find them in life. You find them in human culture. So that's so. But you know, it's a it's a big field right.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. And a lot of history to go through.
Michel Bauwens
Yes.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. And what was that your what was the latest project you're working on you were
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Going to mention?
Michel Bauwens
Yeah. No. So this is
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
A so I, this is a story. So I went to for the first time to to Montenegro last year in April.
Jarrad Hope
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was there for
Michel Bauwens
And.
Jarrad Hope
The SSC week, you
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Know.
Michel Bauwens
And, you know, I was quite critical about crypto and everything. I
Michel Bauwens
Had my resistance. Let's see. But I sat on a table, you know, and there was a climate denialist. So somebody who doesn't believe in climate change, there was a
Jarrad Hope
Get it.
Michel Bauwens
An impact investors so that some people would call a green washer and there was a deep adaptationist, you know, collapses. But the fact that they could talk together peacefully on one
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Table, you know, which is almost impossible now on social media and even elsewhere, because why they had a commons, the commons, they are building the infrastructure that will be good for all of them together. Right. And so they
Jarrad Hope
Yes.
Michel Bauwens
Can put their differences between brackets and focus on their commonality. And, and so that is the power of the commons. And so when I realized. Hum how community centric and common centric crypto was. You know, I
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Was more looking at the speculative and, you know, the criminal part
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
And all
Jarrad Hope
The
Michel Bauwens
Of that,
Jarrad Hope
Outside
Michel Bauwens
Right?
Jarrad Hope
Face of it doesn't look particularly
Michel Bauwens
Yeah,
Jarrad Hope
Great,
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
But like the
Michel Bauwens
So
Jarrad Hope
Actual
Michel Bauwens
Then
Jarrad Hope
Core
Michel Bauwens
The next step
Jarrad Hope
And.
Michel Bauwens
Is right. The next step is, you know, I give my lecture there, I gave two lectures there and there's some Chinese people and they come to me and they're like, oh wow, this is fantastic. I never heard this story before. And so it turns out to be the global
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
Chinese commons, which is a Chinese crypto nomadic network, because crypto
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Is, you know, is is is mostly illegal in China. So
Michel Bauwens
They, you know, they become digital nomads so they can do their work and then go back to their families and not do anything illegal in, in China, basically. And,
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And they said, oh, we based in Shanghai. Wow. You know what? I
Jarrad Hope
A stone's
Michel Bauwens
Have to go
Jarrad Hope
Throw
Michel Bauwens
To
Jarrad Hope
Away.
Michel Bauwens
Montenegro to meet people who who have their headquarters in Shanghai. And so I'm, I'm doing research coordination for the GCC as well.
Jarrad Hope
Oh, wow. Nice.
Michel Bauwens
And so that's also helps me a lot to, you know, to become closer to the crypto world because, you know, I'm not a crypto person. I'm a person that tries to build bridges between
Jarrad Hope
Yes.
Michel Bauwens
Domains. Right? And so I'll know much less than you about crypto, but
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
I will still know more than a lot of people who are skeptical or don't know anything about crypto. And I can make bridges between different domains because I had a kind of varied and rich life which put me in, you know, many different spaces. You know, I've been in technology. I created two startups. I, you know, so I manage SMEs. I worked for two multinationals, you know, in strategy. I, you know, I was a radical in my youth and I was a, you know, at the top of an international organization. I had a very intense spiritual search when I was young. So, you know, I've done the eastern stuff. I've done. I was I've done alchemy. And so, you know, at some point, you know, you you are able to draw from different worlds that normally don't
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Speak to each other. Right, but and that I can somehow translate more or less. So, you know, I'm not saying I know everything, you know, of course, that's not the case. But when you've been in a world, right,
Jarrad Hope
They.
Michel Bauwens
You understand it better than if you're just, like, reading from outside, right?
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
You have to interact with
Jarrad Hope
Definitely.
Michel Bauwens
The people, understand the culture from the inside. And so, you know, after a while that gives you something that a lot of people don't have because, you
Jarrad Hope
You have
Michel Bauwens
Know,
Jarrad Hope
A broader perspective,
Michel Bauwens
Probably for
Jarrad Hope
You know?
Michel Bauwens
Good reason, because there were not as unhappy as I was when I was young. So, you know, I just had to do it to search for like, the solution, you know, and then at some point you discover you're just as fucked up as everybody else. And
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
Then it's
Jarrad Hope
Mean,
Michel Bauwens
Okay,
Jarrad Hope
There's a
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
Lot
Michel Bauwens
Know?
Jarrad Hope
Of rabbit holes that I would have loved to if we had more time to like, you know, delve into their right, like, particularly on the alchemy side of things. And, you know, I guess that's very occult adjacent as well. And I find that
Michel Bauwens
Yeah,
Jarrad Hope
Sort of topic
Michel Bauwens
I've been
Jarrad Hope
Very
Michel Bauwens
A Templar.
Jarrad Hope
Fascinating.
Michel Bauwens
I've been a mason. I've been a Rosicrucian.
Jarrad Hope
Wow.
Michel Bauwens
I you know, I
Jarrad Hope
Incredible.
Michel Bauwens
Wanted to know it all from the inside. And so
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
I spent some
Jarrad Hope
But.
Michel Bauwens
Years just, you know.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. I think, like you know Ethereum is I've been on the inside for Ethereum for, you know, for basically the duration of its existence. In Bitcoin a little bit earlier than that. And It was almost like a quasi religious experience for me, in a way, because it was like the first time that I had found people who could have, who could actually hold different points of view in, in
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Mind and have an intelligent conversation and non-judgmental conversation
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
About,
Michel Bauwens
That's so
Jarrad Hope
You know,
Michel Bauwens
Important.
Jarrad Hope
Different ideas.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah, that's
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So important. And so one of the things I learned from Zachary Stein, you know, he talks about invisible colleges, right. So
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
When things are fragmenting and tribalised and polarizing and the people in the middle lose, lose their influence, like, you know, like Erasmus was very popular. But once they started with the Reformation Wars, nobody listened to him because he,
Jarrad Hope
Ryan
Michel Bauwens
You know,
Jarrad Hope
Wasn't
Michel Bauwens
He didn't
Jarrad Hope
On
Michel Bauwens
Really choose
Jarrad Hope
The fence.
Michel Bauwens
A side. Right. So
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
So what you then have are invisible colleges, which is smaller groups, right, are going to protect themselves to be still be able to think and exchange. Right. And
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
That, by the way, was the role of the Masonic tradition. You know, that was where Catholics and Reformation and atheists could talk together and different classes could come together without everybody else knowing that they were talking together. That's, you know, if you live in a highly repressive environment, that's what you need to do. And so I think, you know, that's to a certain degree we need to do this now, you know, because we have no guarantee that we'll have free speech left in ten years or so. It's, you
Jarrad Hope
That's
Michel Bauwens
Know, I'm.
Jarrad Hope
Why I work on the technologies that I do.
Michel Bauwens
You
Jarrad Hope
So
Michel Bauwens
Know, to be
Jarrad Hope
At
Michel Bauwens
Honest,
Jarrad Hope
Least
Michel Bauwens
Like on
Jarrad Hope
You
Michel Bauwens
Facebook,
Jarrad Hope
Know the cat's
Michel Bauwens
I
Jarrad Hope
Out of
Michel Bauwens
Quit
Jarrad Hope
The bag.
Michel Bauwens
Facebook because I couldn't even share, like, scientific peer reviewed material, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Like it's
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Insane, you know? And so I'm on Twitter. I think Twitter is more pluralistic and it's not perfect, but it's more pluralistic. And, you know, if you can't do it publicly, you have to do it in smaller groups. And
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Of course that's the problem with crypto. You know, like the fragmentation, right? Which is like, you know, 500 telegram groups. So one, one thing, you know, and it's like, oh, God, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Well,
Michel Bauwens
You can
Jarrad Hope
There's.
Michel Bauwens
Spend day and
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
Night, you
Jarrad Hope
There's.
Michel Bauwens
Know, and you still don't know, like only 5% of what's happening in a community.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. Like there's almost an interesting parallel with, say, you know, the establishment of the United States of America and The Federalist Papers in particular, where you basically had a bunch of anons, you know, writing letters to each other and, you know, regardless of the content, they were, you know, fearful of, of British rule and rightly so for for some reasons.
Michel Bauwens
Right? Of course.
Jarrad Hope
And crypto is kind of doing the similar thing. You know, you have these anons that are and other, you know, other political groups out there
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Being anonymous, publishing their information like their ideas
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
And
Michel Bauwens
Censorship
Jarrad Hope
Then evolving
Michel Bauwens
Resistance.
Jarrad Hope
Their thoughts.
Michel Bauwens
You know, zero knowledge proof. Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
I think, you know, that's necessary to protect these trans local groups,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah. I
Jarrad Hope
Think, like, you
Michel Bauwens
And,
Jarrad Hope
Know, in the pursuit
Michel Bauwens
And
Jarrad Hope
Of truth.
Michel Bauwens
And the
Jarrad Hope
You
Michel Bauwens
Transfer
Jarrad Hope
Need that.
Michel Bauwens
Of value,
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
I think is very important. Right. You like, if you don't have capital, you can't win. Right? If you if you're living at the edges and you cannot invest, invest in the expansion of your system, you're very marginal. So the capacity
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
To transfer value. You know, is also a crucial aspect of crypto. And, you know, you
Jarrad Hope
Oh,
Michel Bauwens
Talked
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely.
Michel Bauwens
About religion, right. And so.
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
That's also what I kind of discovered, and most people will be critical about it. But I think you need that, right? You need something
Jarrad Hope
I think
Michel Bauwens
That transcends
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
Your your daily circumstance. And Viktor Frankl in The Man in Search of Meaning,
Jarrad Hope
People.
Michel Bauwens
Which, you know, he was in the concentration camps, right? He said only two kinds of people survived. The communists and the Catholics. The Catholics,
Jarrad Hope
Hmm'hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Because they have vertical transcendence. And they could you know, I'm going to have an and you know, okay. So they could kind of detach themselves and the Communist because they had a temporal utopia right in the future. So I'm not saying both were right or wrong, but
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
I'm saying
Jarrad Hope
But
Michel Bauwens
Is
Jarrad Hope
Like
Michel Bauwens
The
Jarrad Hope
It's
Michel Bauwens
Capacity
Jarrad Hope
That they
Michel Bauwens
To
Jarrad Hope
Had
Michel Bauwens
Project
Jarrad Hope
The.
Michel Bauwens
Yourself in the future is crucially important. So what I'm doing, why I'm interested in cycles, is because the capacity, when you are in declining phase to go beyond the declining phase, right to to look at the next up cycle
Jarrad Hope
I'm.
Michel Bauwens
And to have sound ideas about what the next upside could, could look like. Right. And so that's what I'm doing, is like analyzing seed forms.
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
And thinking like, is that working? If it's working, what does it mean? And can we deduce from that, you know, like characteristics of the future system that that are emerging and.
Jarrad Hope
So what are the different sort of scenarios that you foresee in the future, like your, you know, you think are likely and you know,
Michel Bauwens
Yeah,
Jarrad Hope
Can you pin
Michel Bauwens
I
Jarrad Hope
Them to any
Michel Bauwens
Have
Jarrad Hope
Kind
Michel Bauwens
Four
Jarrad Hope
Of cycle.
Michel Bauwens
Worlds, you know, it's like a four world theory.
Michel Bauwens
And there are four combinations of. So centralizing global. Versus local and distributed. So they're not entirely the same these two words. But you know, I have only one quadrant. So I put them together and then for profit and for benefit. So centralized for profit uses peer to peer and the commons in a fake way. To extract. From human cooperation so that this is what I call net article capitalism. You know, the Googles and the Ubers. And I think there's a shift in capitalism from commodity based capitalism. You know, I call it Marxist capitalism because they there's an extraction of surplus value from human labor and nature to systems that directly exploit human cooperation. So they create platforms,
Jarrad Hope
So.
Michel Bauwens
We exchange and we work and they tax so that we're back to rent. Right to
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
This is feudal. This is they're not profit makers in the sense that they make things that they sell a higher price. They taxes. Right. Just as a serf had to give half of his produce to be able to use the land. Right. That's so even capitalists today are exploited by them, because you have to give 30% of your profit in order to access the platforms, sometimes 70%. So then you have
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Distributed capitalism, which is libertarianism. And so the idea is to to make everybody in a small entrepreneur who can, you know, autonomously make agreements and, and create and share value. But it's still kind of for profit oriented. Then you have urban commons local for benefit oriented and the global open source world. Right. So these are four different systems, all based on peer to peer and in different combinations. They all exist and they all compete with each other. And
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Then of course, what is interesting is when you start having hybrids, right. Like crypto is evolving. To incorporate open source. Right. And what I want
Michel Bauwens
Is a crypto also incorporates the urban commons.
Jarrad Hope
Right.
Michel Bauwens
Because
Jarrad Hope
Well
Michel Bauwens
Then we have
Jarrad Hope
I mean there
Michel Bauwens
Three
Jarrad Hope
Certainly
Michel Bauwens
Against
Jarrad Hope
Exists
Michel Bauwens
One.
Jarrad Hope
Within crypto. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Jarrad Hope
There.
Michel Bauwens
I mean, they're all, you know, wi fi and all that. They're trying it.
Jarrad Hope
No.
Michel Bauwens
But what I'm, what I'm critiquing is the lack of connection between all the people in the cities of the renewable energy co-ops and, you know, collective access to organic food and and real car sharing and cooperative housing and cohousing. And then they're not connected at all to the crypto world and vice versa. And
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
I would so I wrote something called crypto for real, where I call for, you know, these alliances. This is what you know, that's my particular point of view, what I would like to see.
Jarrad Hope
That would be really nice. Yeah. For sure. Those ideas, like were very prominent, like, even early early on in Ethereum's life cycle. And Ethereum has like a different sort of affinity, cultural affinity group around it than, say, the Bitcoiners do. Right?
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Which is also quite interesting to to note that, like these different public programable chains or public chains have their own sets of AI you know, behavioral characteristics, you know, virtues and these sort of things. But I think, you know, part of we're taking a long detour because there is a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built and ensuring things
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
Are scalable while maintaining the properties that we care about. And like, that's why you don't really see a very large decentralized application ecosystem. It exists. Sure. But like, it's kind
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Of in a almost like a halfway house, like a web 2.5 where you
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Jarrad Hope
Have,
Michel Bauwens
You know, and
Jarrad Hope
You
Michel Bauwens
The interfaces
Jarrad Hope
Know.
Michel Bauwens
Are often like, you know, I mean, I use a wallet, but to be honest, I still find it very complex. And
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
I often have to ask a friend, you know, I would do screen sharing.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
You know, maybe
Jarrad Hope
I
Michel Bauwens
It's my
Jarrad Hope
Mean, it's
Michel Bauwens
My
Jarrad Hope
Like rebuilding
Michel Bauwens
Generational
Jarrad Hope
The net
Michel Bauwens
Handicap,
Jarrad Hope
Again.
Michel Bauwens
But I think it's way, way too complicated.
Jarrad Hope
It
Michel Bauwens
And,
Jarrad Hope
Is. Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
You know, a lot of the, like, publishing portals. Yeah, there's still a long way to go. But
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
The thing is,
Jarrad Hope
Gotta
Michel Bauwens
It's
Jarrad Hope
Start
Michel Bauwens
Been
Jarrad Hope
Somewhere.
Michel Bauwens
Going on for, you know. It's been going on, what, for 15 or 10 years. So the thing is, when Bitcoin goes down and the crypto goes down and you're still doing it. That's that's very important, right? Because that means that it's not just greed. It's not just
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Speculation. You really believe in it. So that's where the religious aspect, you know, it's an ideology also. And
Jarrad Hope
Yes, it really
Michel Bauwens
We
Jarrad Hope
Is.
Michel Bauwens
Either have religion or we have ideology, you know,
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And it doesn't mean it's true or false, but, you know, it's a way to make sense of the world. And it gives you you need something transcendent, right? You need something that's beyond you. Because if you just
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
Follow your feelings Monday, you like it. Tuesday you hate it. So
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
If you want to be committed
Jarrad Hope
It's not
Michel Bauwens
To
Jarrad Hope
A
Michel Bauwens
Something,
Jarrad Hope
Grounded
Michel Bauwens
You have
Jarrad Hope
Rock.
Michel Bauwens
To believe. You have to believe that it's more than that. You have to be willing to make sacrifices.
Jarrad Hope
You
Michel Bauwens
And
Jarrad Hope
Know,
Michel Bauwens
I think
Jarrad Hope
I'm
Michel Bauwens
Crypto
Jarrad Hope
No stranger
Michel Bauwens
Has that.
Jarrad Hope
To that.
Michel Bauwens
You know
Jarrad Hope
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Crypto has
Jarrad Hope
Yeah,
Michel Bauwens
That.
Jarrad Hope
Absolutely. No, I
Michel Bauwens
I.
Jarrad Hope
Believe it does. And I feel that for a large part of that, I'm an embodiment of it. And, you know, the sort of beer runs I really appreciate for this, you know, for the exact reason that you mentioned that the the people who are here for the right reasons stay right, and they continue
Michel Bauwens
All right.
Jarrad Hope
Building and they also continue building almost on faith because, you know, their runway
Michel Bauwens
Right.
Jarrad Hope
Or their, you know, like
Michel Bauwens
But
Jarrad Hope
The
Michel Bauwens
Faith
Jarrad Hope
Amount of capital
Michel Bauwens
Moves mountains.
Jarrad Hope
They have. Yeah. And I guess before before we jump off I was wondering, you know, if there's any book recommendations you might have on some of these topics, particularly around cycles.
Michel Bauwens
All right. Well, okay. You have Peter Turchin. Secular cycles.
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
And he has a new book. I,
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
I, I enjoyed fourth generation as well. Or
Michel Bauwens
Is it a fourth generation? I think so, right. You know that famous book about the generational cycle.
Jarrad Hope
Yeah, yeah.
Michel Bauwens
Now the fourth turning. I'm sorry. It's the fourth turning.
Jarrad Hope
There we go.
Michel Bauwens
One book I really like is Kojin Karatani. It's called The Structure of World History, which is a really great summary of, you know, many of these thinkers and doesn't really focus on cycles, but it's it's very good. So I have, I have a section in my wiki called Civilization Analysis with very detailed overviews of all these authors
Jarrad Hope
Mm.hmm.
Michel Bauwens
I have. I have a site called a page called sources of P2P theory. Where, you know, I survey all the things that influence my thinking over the years. I have another one called What you should read about the comments, and maybe in the description I can send them to you and you can put it in, in the description and, this is more than one book, but they, you know, they can choose which book that appeals most to them.
Jarrad Hope
That's fantastic. Yeah. Thank you very much. And thank you for spending the time with us. Really appreciate it.
Michel Bauwens
Yeah.
Michel Bauwens
With pleasure. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Episode host - Jarrad Hope
Produced by - Christian Noguera
Edited by - Christian Noguera